George Fox and Romans 7

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 3rdMo. 10, 2019 at 11:13

Patricia, the quality both Fox and the apostle possessed, which others have too throughout church history, was simply the power of God, which overrules all human gifts or abilities. Anyone who has the Holy Spirit living within them and is therefore united with Christ in His resurrection power, can hear God personally, for guidance in forming new groupings, though I believe that the times they lived in counted, and spiritually ascertain where others are standing in their spirits, recognising immediately others who have reached this stage of development. It has been seen outside of Quakerism in the likes of Charles Finney, Pelagius, many in the Holiness Movement of America, and the 20th century revivals in Wales and other parts of the UK. They have not had the same understanding of church order, sacraments etc, as they were influenced too much by Protestanism but nevertheless, thousands of people were deeply affected in their presence and were brought to Christ and then entirely sanctified when they were taught the full gospel. Is the NFF bringing in thousands of people and changing society? I think not.

We are now, and have been since the 1950's in a period of great darkness, where men are blinded to the full gospel which if present, will display the same changing of men and therefore of the societies they lived in, seen in past times and particularly the times we have spoken of. Men think they are prophets but again they do not show the same fruit in the replication of others who walked as Jesus walked, in complete obedience, actually, not as Fox would say as a notion.

Comment by Patricia Dallmann on 3rdMo. 10, 2019 at 13:52

Brenda, I agree with you that Paul and Fox knew and were faithful to the power of God, which was necessary for them to be "leaders of men." Yet Timothy and Barnabas, and Penington and Nayler, also had knowledge of God and, though living at the same time, were not the "leaders of men" that were Paul and Fox. They didn't have the natural gifts for leadership - the people skills - that Paul and Fox had (Nayler suffered mightily as a result of this lack). I contend that both knowledge of God and social (people) skills are needed to make such a leader as Paul or Fox. 

These men used their own judgment ("people skills") to guide people toward the desired end: receiving Christ. Paul repeatedly distinguishes between the Lord's command and his own judgment, and, as a leader, he relies on both: the power of God and his own judgment (reason and conscience used simultaeously) to set out principles for people to follow. His intent is to prepare them to receive Christ, the function of "a leader of men," men who have yet to have been given knowledge of Christ. Here is one example of Paul using his own judgment, and identifying it as such:

Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy (1 Cor. 7:25).

He is here telling us that he is using his own judgment, and is not relaying a command from the Lord. In the same chapter, he again distinguishes between his own command and the command of the Lord: I Cor. 7:10 and 12:

And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband (10)

To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her (12).

He employs his own power of judgment (in verse 12) to effect a response in these people of Corinth that will prepare them to receive Christ. With his "people skills," he can sense/judge what these people need to do to prepare themselves to receive Christ, and he spells it out for them, as he's "a leader of men," and in their ignorance/immaturity, they're in the need of the guidance that a leader gives.

Paul's epistles are full of examples of him using his skill to get these people to behave themselves and order their minds and hearts, but he uses these skills to the trustworthy end of building up the Church of living stones. The false prophet is one who has people skills but uses them to the end of self-edification; he would build up himself in the estimation of others. But, as you wrote and is stated in Mk. 13:22, the elect Seed can see "where others are standing in their spirits." 

Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 12, 2019 at 1:59

Ellis, I know what you are saying: that holiness is the listening to and obeying the voice of Jesus Christ. That is not enough and impossible without the new nature, which makes us like Christ, to have His nature manifested in us, and therefore to have no sin at all even in the thoughts. If you can say your life is now a copy of the way Jesus lived, and still have thoughts that are not in line with the sermon on the mount then that is blasphemy.

No, this is not what I am saying. I am stating that hearing and following the voice of Christ brings us from death to life, from living in sin to living without sin, from living in the kingdom of the serpent to living in the kingdom of God. Mankind takes on the nature of the serpent by listening to and following the serpent's voice. Hearing and following the voice of Christ brings us out of the nature of the serpent into the nature of Christ. There is no other way.
Isn't Christ sufficient to lead his people into the life the Father requires of us? Jesus told his disciples "All power in heaven and earth is given unto me." The first promise of the messiah is that he will destroy the serpent and the serpent's work in mankind. Jesus is the blessing promised to Abraham who removes the curse that came upon mankind by following the serpent. It was not Fox who taught you that following Jesus is not enough to bring one into this blessed state of perfection before God. He stated:

Friends, all that be gathered in the name of Jesus whose name is above every other name, you know that there is not any salvation by another name under the whole heaven but by the name of Jesus, and you that be gathered in his name will feel him in the midst of you a prophet to open to you; a shepherd to feed you in his heavenly pastures of life; a heavenly bishop to oversee you in his heavenly possession; a counsellor to counsel you concerning your lot and state in the land of the living and in the things of the kingdom of God and in the world that has no end; and you will see Christ a leader and commander to lead you out of death, darkness, sin and corruption … and command you to obey him, and hear him, and follow him, and take up his cross the power of God by which you are crucified to the world … and to know him your priest that offered himself up for you and all men and sanctifies you and washes you and presents you to God without spot or wrinkle or blemish. Richardson MSS, p.278 (My emphasis added)

More quotes follow.

Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 12, 2019 at 2:05

The following are taken from Fox's To All That Would Know the Way to the Kingdom. I am sorry there is not room to post the whole of this tract, but consider the following:

And dwelling in the light, there is no occasion at all of stumbling, for all things are discovered with the light: thou that lovest it, here is thy teacher; when thou art walking abroad, it is present with thee in thy bosom; thou needest not to say, lo here, or lo there: and as thou liest in thy bed it is present to teach thee, and judge thy wandering mind, which would wander abroad, and thy high thoughts and imaginations, and makes them subject; for following thy thoughts thou art quickly lost. But dwelling in this light, it will discover to thee the body of sin, and thy corruptions, and fallen estate, where thou art, and multitude of thoughts: in that light which shews thee all this, stand, neither go to the right hand, nor to the left: here is patience exercised, here is thy will subjected, here thou wilt see the mercies of God made manifest in death: here thou wilt see the drinking of the waters of Shiloah, which run softly, and the promises of God fulfilled, which are to the seed, which seed is Christ: here thou wilt find a saviour, and the election thou wilt come to know, and the reprobation, and what is cast from God, and what enters: he that can own me here, and receive my testimony into his heart, the immortal seed is born up, and his own will thrust forth, for it is not him that willeth, nor him that runneth, but the election obtaineth it, and God that shews mercy; for the first step of peace is to stand still in the light (which discovers things contrary to it) for power and strength to stand against that nature which the light discovers: here grace grows, here is God alone glorified and exalted, and the unknown truth, unknown to the world, made manifest, which draws up that which lies in the prison, and refresheth it in time, up to God, out of time, through time. (Vol. IV, pp.17-18) (My emphasis added)

Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 12, 2019 at 2:12

And to you that tempt God, and say, the Lord give us a sight of our sins, priests and people, does not the light, which Christ hath enlightened you with, let you see your sins, that lying and swearing, cursed speaking, theft, murder, and whoredom, and covetousness, and pride, and lust, and pleasures, all these to be the works of flesh, and fruits of darkness? this light within you lets you see it, so you need not tempt God to give you a sight of your sins, for ye know enough; and waiting in the light, power and strength will be given to you; for they that wait upon the Lord, their strength shall be renewed; and living in the light, and walking up to God, it will bring you to true hunger and thirst after righteousness, that you may receive the blessing from God; and give over tempting of God, as if he had not given you a sight of your sins. And to all ye that say, God give us grace, and we shall refrain from our sin, there ye have got a tempting customary word, for the free grace of God hath appeared to all men, and this is the grace of God, which shews thee ungodliness and worldly lusts. Now thou that livest in ungodliness, lying, and swearing, and theft, and murder, and drunkenness, and filthy pleasures, and lusting after the world, thou art he that turnest the free grace of God into wantonness, and casteth his laws behind thy back, and walkest despitefully against the spirit of grace...(Vol. IV, p.21) (My emphasis added)

All who stumble at the light are without, and are not come to repentance, and so all who stumble at the light, stumble at the door, the door is known by the light which comes from Christ: and all who stumble at the light, stumble at the way; for Christ hath enlightened every one, that, with the light he might see the way (which is Christ) to the father. So all who stumble at the light, stumble at the scriptures, and know not the meaning of them ; for that eye that is turned from the light is the blind, and leads into the ditch, and is to be condemned with the light from Christ: and all who stumble at the light, never knew hope which purifies, nor faith which purifies, nor the belief which overcomes the world; but he walks in darkness, and doth not know whither he goes,(ibid., p.25)(My empahsis added

Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 12, 2019 at 2:37

Now you see by eating and disobeying the commands of God came death. Saith Christ: “Except ye eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you” (John 6:53). So by eating comes life again. It is not by talking. Had all Christendom kept under this teacher, they had been happy. God hath spoken to us by his son, to whom be honor and glory, majesty and power! Had all Christendom kept to this teacher, they had never made so many schools and colleges, and bred up ministers, nor maintenance, nor staff, nor bag. Saith Christ: “Go without staff or bag; freely you have received, freely give” (Matt. 10:8-10). The Jews had laws to take tithes. Christ said: “Freely…received, freely give.” When they went from this teacher, they heaped up teachers to themselves. It is the same spirit and nature that led thy father Adam and mother Eve from God’s teaching. Do you not see that they cry out for a body of death and a body of sin? This is got up since the Fall.
Behold, the lamb of God which was before the foundation of the world! Behold, he takes away the sins who is the true teacher. He who was, he is, and will be to all eternity. He was the teacher to Adam and Eve in Paradise, and to the prophets, and apostles. Life and immortality is brought to light again by the gospel. Therefore, [why] have they had so many teachers, made colleges, and made ministers to keep in the Fall, and the same nature and spirit that had murdered and destroyed? As the Devil came with his conjecturings, he comes with his motives: “You shall not die, you shall be as gods, you shall know good and evil” (Gen. 3:4-5). Did not God teach them before [the Devil] came with his motives to stir up to disobedience? He who was is come again to teach his people by his blessed Spirit and blessed power. God has spoken to us by his son, his seed. (That Thy Candles May Always Be Burning, pp. 142-143) (My empahsis added)

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 3rdMo. 12, 2019 at 8:53

Patricia wrote: "Brenda, I agree with you that Paul and Fox knew and were faithful to the power of God, which was necessary for them to be "leaders of men." Yet Timothy and Barnabas, and Penington and Nayler, also had knowledge of God and, though living at the same time, were not the "leaders of men" that were Paul and Fox. They didn't have the natural gifts for leadership - the people skills - that Paul and Fox had (Nayler suffered mightily as a result of this lack). I contend that both knowledge of God and social (people) skills are needed to make such a leader as Paul or Fox. 

These men used their own judgment ("people skills") to guide people toward the desired end: receiving Christ. Paul repeatedly distinguishes between the Lord's command and his own judgment, and, as a leader, he relies on both: the power of God and his own judgment (reason and conscience used simultaeously) to set out principles for people to follow. His intent is to prepare them to receive Christ, the function of "a leader of men," men who have yet to have been given knowledge of Christ. Here is one example of Paul using his own judgment, and identifying it as such:

Now concerning the betrothed, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my judgment as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy (1 Cor. 7:25).

He is here telling us that he is using his own judgment, and is not relaying a command from the Lord. In the same chapter, he again distinguishes between his own command and the command of the Lord: I Cor. 7:10 and 12:

And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband (10)

To the rest I say (I, not the Lord) that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he should not divorce her (12).

He employs his own power of judgment (in verse 12) to effect a response in these people of Corinth that will prepare them to receive Christ. With his "people skills," he can sense/judge what these people need to do to prepare themselves to receive Christ, and he spells it out for them, as he's "a leader of men," and in their ignorance/immaturity, they're in the need of the guidance that a leader gives.

Paul's epistles are full of examples of him using his skill to get these people to behave themselves and order their minds and hearts, but he uses these skills to the trustworthy end of building up the Church of living stones. The false prophet is one who has people skills but uses them to the end of self-edification; he would build up himself in the estimation of others. But, as you wrote and is stated in Mk. 13:22, the elect Seed can see "where others are standing in their spirits.""

Patricia, you keep on saying 'people skills' as an ability outside of the gifts God endows on us to fulfill His wishes, yet one of the greatest leaders ever - Moses, was completely devoid of this gift. He required the assistence of someone else and pleaded with God Exodus 4:10 "Please, Lord," Moses replied, "I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since You have spoken to Your servant, for I am slow of speech and tongue." So he was unequipped in even the most basic of leadership skills and needed Aaron to speak on his behalf.

And Jeremiah: Jeremiah 1:6 "Ah, Lord GOD," I said, "I surely do not know how to speak, for I am only a child!"

As for Paul, I contend that he uses his own judgment on occasions where he is unsure of God's guidance as no man can be certain over everything as being God's word, and a mature person will know that they can get it wrong and indeed Paul got it severely wrong when he proceeded to go up to Jerusalem when the Holy Spirit had clearly said no, both to him and through others. He was arrested there and taken out of his most vital mission in guiding believers to entire sanctification by faith in what Christ achieved on the cross, as freedom from all sin and not just freedom from guilt and then dependence on the flesh in obedience. He did not preach to unbelievers, they did not attend churches due to persecution.

He shows this in Galatians where he shows them that obedience to the 'law' is not what Christ requires when they depend on that. Gal 1:⁶ I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel. They had been mislead as many are today, that coming to Christ is sufficient, even if they believe that hearing Him and obeying is what is required.

He continues Gal 1:¹⁶ Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 3³ Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

So he is saying that it is not obedience to the law either written or spoken directly by Christ, that man is right with God. It is by faith not works, not in the coming to Christ, which Jews contrary to opinion ever did believe, (it was by birth into Judaism). He is talking about the 'walk', the 'living in the light' or sanctification. He was the aposle of sanctification as was Fox.

It is as Fox says, the coming up through the flaming sword, as already a believer, which he was when it occured. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which makes one holy as Christ is holy, and then obeying.

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 3rdMo. 12, 2019 at 9:27

 Ellis quoted Fox 'waiting in the light, power and strength will be given to you; for they that wait upon the Lord, their strength shall be renewed; and living in the light, and walking up to God, it will bring you to true hunger and thirst after righteousness, that you may receive the blessing from God.'

Yes of course we must hear Christ speak, and with conviction of the Holy Spirit, come to see that we are impure, an event which Fox describes when coming up through the sword which cut him to the core. After which we are enabled to walk in the light and see the futility of working in the flesh or trying to obey Christ before the flesh is crucified, not in the legal sense it is used at large in the Christian world, but as an actual experience. These people will no longer talk about obeying the commandments as the only duty of the believer. This point was repeatedly made by Fox. Those who have not come to this point are carnal as we have discussed previously. They believe that obeying Christ is all which is needed without this crucifixion of the flesh.

But it is an event and not a gradual process. That is very clear according to Fox who was already a follower of Christ as were the disciples before Pentecost, before that momentous event.

This event puts us back to the state of Adam before he fell. Going on from there, as Fox teaches, there is a state of being where one does not and cannot sin and the hunger and thirst for righteousness is fulfilled.

First stage in entire sanctification

I knew nothing but pureness, and innocency, and righteousness; being renewed into the image of God by Christ Jesus, to the state of Adam, which he was in before he fell. 

Second stage:

But I was immediately taken up in spirit to see into another or more steadfast state than Adam's innocency, even into a state in Christ Jesus that should never fall. And the Lord showed me that such as were faithful to Him, in the power and light of Christ, should come up into that state in which Adam was before he fell

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 3rdMo. 12, 2019 at 13:24

We are disagreeing on when and how the processes take place rather then the content, and the test for the correct one, is through the fruits seen.

I contend that the way that Ellis describes it, being also the teaching of Benson and the NFF, is incorrect because the fruit, that is the same fruit seen during the ministry of the apostles and Fox, is patently missing - no outbreak of the power of God in the community that the men are living in. No sign of the thousands upon thousands of people changing the very fabric of their communities.

Comment by Patricia Dallmann on 3rdMo. 12, 2019 at 13:35

My point was that both prophetic vision and social/political/people skills are necessary to lead the immature toward faith. Rarely are both found in the same person, but a team of two people, one each having either prophetic vision or social savvy, can function together as a single leader, that is, when both are faithful. That God sanctions such a team - though reluctantly - in Moses and Aaron - supports my contention, as does Jesus in Jn. 21 with Peter and John, which I've already described in another comment.

I didn't intend to say (as you suggested) that people skills are an "ability outside of the gifts God endows on us to fulfill His wishes." Jesus before Pilate identifies these skills as a natural gift given by God when he says:

You would have no authority at all over me...if it had not been granted you from above (Jn. 19:11).

The misuse of this authority/power (as did Pilate) proves that this power (to manage, lead, etc.) is a natural gift (to the first birth nature) from God, given to some and not to others: a natural gift given to man, as are all creaturely endowments, and distinct from the heavenly gift given to the second birth: the gift of prophecy.

It is the earthly gift that is needed to become "a leader of men," for good or ill; the gift well-used or misused. When this gift is coupled with the prophetic gift - whether in one person or in a team -  the work of bringing the immature to faith can move forward.

The prophet, if he misuses his gift, is deprived by God of it; the manager/leader of men, who misuses his gift, succumbs to the third temptation of Satan (Mt. 4:8-10):

Once again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in their glory. "All these," he said, "I will give you, if you will only fall down and do me homage."

"They have their reward" (Mt. 6:2).

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