Reproclaiming the Everlasting Gospel
George Fox and Romans 7
Following a lengthy discussion, Brenda Redshaw (of this site), asked me to look into what Fox had to say concerning Romans chapter 7. In searching for “Rom. vi” or “Rom. 7” I turned up very few references. So I turned to searches for the concepts or phrases Fox used when he identified Romans 7 in his writing. There may be a better approach, or I perhaps could have used better phrases. I hope all readers will do their own searches and contribute what they find of significance. Here is what I found.
Fox does not deal with Romans 7 exclusively but brings together concepts from chap. 6 (“newness of life”), chapter 7 (“oldness of the letter”), chapter 8 (“the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death”), chapter 10 (“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness’ sake.”), and many other parts of the Bible. Fox’s associations of scripture passages range the full gamut of the scriptures. See for example:
And as Moses in the old covenant sprinkled the people with the blood, the life of beasts; so Christ our high priest sprinkles the hearts and consciences of his people in the new covenant with his blood, his life, from their dead works, that they may serve the living God in newness of life:' and as the blood of the old covenant was the life of the beasts, so the blood of the everlasting covenant is the life of Christ the Lamb, ordained before the foundation of the world, who is the great shepherd of his sheep, through the blood of his everlasting covenant he makes his saints perfect in every good work to do his will, working in them that which is well pleasing in his sight.' (Works, Vol. V, pp.362-363)
Here we have the Pentateuch, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hebrews, and Romans all rolled together to form the picture of the distinction between the newness of life and the oldness of the letter. Fox used this distinction over and over, portraying the contrast between those who live by the law of life in Christ Jesus and those who live by some other law. See his comment in Vol. 7 (pp. 88-89 )
For ye may see, how far many may go, and did go, and were led out of many things; yet did turn again into the world. So mind your present guide, and your present condition, and your call, what ye are called from, and what ye are called to; for whom the Lord hath called and chosen, are the Lord's freemen. And so, abide every one in your calling with God, where God hath called you, and there walk in newness of life, and not in the oldness of the letter; for he that turneth from him that calleth, walks not in the life of God. Therefore, all Friends, walk in the truth and in the love of it up to God; and every one in particular mind your guide, that ye may grow up in wisdom, and improve your own talents, and the gift which God hath given you. And take heed of words without life, for they tend to draw you out of the power to live above the truth, and out of your conditions; which nature will not have peace, except it have words. But every particular submit to that which is of God in you, to guide you to God.
Paul contrasted life under the law (portrayed in Romans 7) with life under Christ who is the end of the law for Righteousness sake (Romans 8 and 10). His rhetorical question and answer, which many quote as proof that man can’t live righteously before God, that sin will be taken care of finally at some future time, is:
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom. 7:24-25)
But for Fox, Romans 7 is not the end of the story. Like Edward Burrough, Fox could say, “But of that birth are we which hath no crown, no glory, nor rest under the sun: a birth is brought forth amongst us which is heir of another kingdom, and possessor of another crown, whose glorying is in the Lord all the day long; and he is our refuge, our rock, and our fortress against all our enemies.” (Vol. III, p. 6) In epistle CIV, Fox exhorts Friends to dwell in the power of God and to know (that is experience) the power of God to keep you. In epistle CV, he spells out how this is to be done.
CV.—Concerning the Light. (To be read amongst Friends.) All Friends every where, keep your meetings waiting in the light which comes from the Lord Jesus Christ; so will ye receive power from him, and have the refreshing springs of life opened to your souls, and be kept sensible of the tender mercies of the Lord. And know one another in the life, (ye that be turned to the light,) and in the power, which comes from the Lord Jesus Christ, who is your light, who is your life; that ye may all in the life see Christ to reign in you, who is the truth, from whence ye have light. Here the old serpent is chained, and put into the bottomless pit, and Christ is known to reign, and ye to reign with him; heirs with him, joint-heirs, and heirs of God. Here is the dominion received and witnessed of the world that is without end, and the promise of life from the Father of life to you, who are turned to the son, who to the Father is the way, who is the mediator between the Father and you. All wait to receive the everlasting priest, the everlasting covenant of God, of light, life, and peace; into which covenant no sin, no darkness, nor death comes, but the blessing of the only wise God, the Father of life, here is known, where no earthly man can approach. But he that is of God knows God's truth; and he that is of the devil, doth his lusts, who was a murderer from the beginning, in whom is no truth, who in it abode not. So he it is that speaks a lie, and speaks of himself, and not God's word; for he is out of the truth. But ye that are turned to the light walk in the light, walk in the truth, where no darkness is; with which light, that never changeth, ye may come to see that which was in the beginning, before the world was, where there is no shadow nor darkness. In which light as ye wait, ye will come to receive into your hearts the word of faith, which reconciles to God, and is as a hammer, to beat down all that is contrary; and as a sword, to divide the precious from the vile; and as a fire, to burn up that which is contrary to the precious: which word is pure, and endureth for ever; which was in the beginning, and is now again witnessed and made manifest. Therefore wait in the light, that ye may all receive it, the same word that ever was, which the scriptures were given forth from.
Thus, with Fox’s admonition, we do not find ourselves in a state of impotency having to wait for some future time when Christ will take away sin. Neither are we consigned to struggle and failure until some further work of grace descends upon us. Fox wrote in Vol. III:
Every man that cometh into the world, though they be in the first Adam, have a light from Christ the second Adam, the bishop of their souls. So every one being turned to the light which Christ the second Adam hath enlightened them withal, they shall see the bishop of their souls, Christ the power of God, which is immortal, and brings the immortal soul into the immortal God. Christ is their sanctification, who sanctifies their spirits, and bodies, and brings the soul up into God, from whom it came, whereby they come to be one soul. For in the lusts of the world, and the affections of it, is the war against it, and there are the powers of wickedness. The soul must be in the higher power, higher than the flesh, which stains the man, spirit and body, and the powers of wickedness. So the light being turned to, man receiveth the spirit of God, which sanctifies him, the spirit of sanctification in Christ Jesus the sanctification and redemption. So every man that cometh into the world has a light from Christ Jesus, the way out of the fall, the second Adam, and receiving the light he receives his redemption and sanctification, whereby his spirit, body, and soul are sanctified. (p.168)
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Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 3rdMo. 5, 2019 at 14:51
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I did not come here Ellis, to understand your position as I know it already, coming from a Protestant background myself and know exactly where you are coming from in your Arminian interpretation of Romans 7. You however, have shown no interest in knowing mine and where I differ, as well as did Fox, from your Protestantism.
I have taken great pains to try to explain my position and especially on Romans 7 which is the testing point of which theological system we hold, and I have tried very hard to show that the last 40 odd years have not proven that Benson was right - there has been no corresponding outpouring of the power of God in the countries where your gospel has been preached and which occured in past times when men are hearing and obeying Christ according to His will and rather, that the so called people in the light or NFF have not had any effect on preventing the very seriious decline we see around us and even here, a place where it should be buzzing.
But my job is done Ellis, I have put my uttmost into it despite the lack of any real engagement in the conversation from your side and lack of answering questions so I will leave it there and you to God's dealings as you continue to see yourself as a leader of men and so will heap a large amount of judgement upon yourself at the end.
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Comment by Patricia Dallmann on 3rdMo. 6, 2019 at 13:47
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Brenda, I do not wish to resume this discussion but feel there are two things on my mind that need to be said.
First, my heart goes out to you for your daughter's passing. In the time since your loss, I hope that Christ has been by your side continually to comfort and strengthen you. One year is too short a time for grief to lessen, but it will feel not so overwhelming with time; I can attest from experience, now 23 years gone by.
Second, I cannot let pass a misconception that occurs in your final comment. I don't think anyone in NFF feels himself to be "a leader of men." That would be a conceited, self-exalting notion that should be corrected forthwith, for it does not give Christ the glory who is the leader forever.
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@Patricia Dallmann
Many thanks for stepping forth with your kind words and for telling me of your own grief. Yes I agree that it does get easier over time and eventually you can find a life worth living. My schizophrenic eldest son committed suicide 18 years ago at the age of 31 so I know about this. I am very sorry for your loss.
It is quite a shock when fellow Christians cannot show compassion and act like the world in turning away so I appreciate your words.
I think Lewis Benson was regarded as a leader of the NFF but maybe he himself did not think he was, I do not know. Perhaps teacher would be more correct. Either way, someone who places themselves in a position of producing teaching in blogs or a web site must be regarded as such.
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Thank you, Brenda. I am sorry that you've had to twice face such a severe loss. I hope you have other children, and they make your way easier to bear. Whether or no, Christ gives complete joy, so that we can affirm life genuinely and wholeheartedly. Jesus recognized the depth of this loss when he spoke near the end of his life, placing his beloved disciple in his stead to be a son to his grieving mother.
Your statements around leadership surprised me. I'd be disappointed to find out that Lewis Benson considered himself a leader of NFF, because that would be so opposed to his understanding of Gospel Order, which is that all are subservient to Christ, our Head and leader. Also, your statement that those who post and teach in blogs or web sites "must be regarded" as a leader of a group was also surprising. I can see that longing to lead a group might be a temptation to the worldly, who have no knowledge of Christ, and thus seek to prevail over others as a way to elevate their self-image, but those who know Christ have no such need, and would see that lust as a threat to their relationship with Christ, their true joy. To write and teach is a way to publish truth; it is love of truth that is behind one's writing and speaking. Any group in which the world has replaced the true work of the gospel is not worthy of continuing.
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Patricia thank again. All of my 4 children were alienated from me by an alienating narcissist whom I unfortunately married through lack of parental guidance. Do you have other children?
From my readings, I was sure that George Fox was seen as a leader, and certainly the early church thought that the apostle Paul was.
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My, you have had a tough row to hoe! You asked if I had other children; I have two, a son and a daughter both in their 30s, honest and kind.
Both Fox and Paul had an extraordinary number of natural gifts, which were exercised well in faith, and others looked to them for guidance for that reason. But relying on another person to be one's leader is a less-than-mature way; it's the way of the old covenant, and these men were working to bring in the new. Jeremiah shows the new way's superseding the need for leaders (his words are repeated in Hebrews):
For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor And every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: For all shall know me, from the least to the greatest (8:10-11).
Any group that requires a leader to guide them is not fulfilling the charge given to humanity to know the Lord, all of us from the least to the greatest. Any Quaker group, including NFF, that's worth its salt will not be given to promote a leader within its ranks nor will any be given to lust after a leadership position. That would be in complete violation of the aim and purpose of the fellowship.
I now must get ready for an appointment this morning. Nice talking with you, Brenda!
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Yes Patricia I agree with you, that Fox and Paul were working to bring in the new - to lead men to where they would be able to walk in the light by themselves with Christ as head.
But they were still leaders as most men were not at their stage. In the sense that Benson was acting as a leader, although I disagree with his theology and its fruits are there to see, no-one in the NFF is displaying the gifts seen at the 2 times we are discussing. He was telling people they had it wrong and showing them the right way. That is a leader in my mind.
Of course we are not meant to stay in the position of being led, but it is a necessary stage we go through.
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I understand and agree with you that "most men [are] not at [Fox's and Paul's] stage," and that both of the two had a gift for leading others into readiness to receive faith. Their writings indicate that not only were they prophetic, but they also had people skills. That is to say, they could anticipate the reaction or response of others to their words or behavior, and could modulate their communication according to the response they sought.
Both this managerial skill and the prophetic sensibility are essential to leading others toward Christ. It is rare to the point of extinction, though, to see both of these necessary elements in one person. Less rare - though still rare - is the person who has prophetic vision but is without managerial skills, and then finally, more prevalent is the person who has managerial skill but is without prophetic vision.
These two (the prophet and the manager, each having one element and lacking the other) can complement one another by working together, and I think this is laid out in John 21, where Peter and John each form one member of a team that Jesus sets up before leaving. The big snafu in this arrangement is that the manager decides that if he "kills" the prophet, the vineyard will be his (Mk. 12:1-12). That is to say, if the manager in some way edges out, disqualifies, undermines, and thus wins the hearts and minds of the grandstand occupants, he fulfills his dream of seeing himself as "a leader of men," as were Fox and Paul.
Prophets are subjected to this maneuver by such morally challenged managers. It's a shame, but it's the way Satan takes down a functioning power: by playing to the pride and lust of the weaker link. There's no such problem when both the prophetic and the managerial skills are given to one person, and such were Paul and Fox. This doesn't happen often. But where the prophet is without these skills, his or her sole work must be to speak the truth, and let the chips fall where they may; some may hear, and some may refuse to hear.... Where the manager is without prophetic vision, he must guard himself against his weakness, if he's to be of use in the work, rather than destructive to it.
Where this all fits in with New Foundation Fellowship - past or present - I would hesitate to say.
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Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 9, 2019 at 3:18
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I did not come here Ellis, to understand your position as I know it already, coming from a Protestant background myself and know exactly where you are coming from in your Arminian interpretation of Romans 7. You however, have shown no interest in knowing mine and where I differ, as well as did Fox, from your Protestantism.
I have taken great pains to try to explain my position and especially on Romans 7 which is the testing point of which theological system we hold, and I have tried very hard to show that the last 40 odd years have not proven that Benson was right - there has been no corresponding outpouring of the power of God in the countries where your gospel has been preached and which occured in past times when men are hearing and obeying Christ according to His will and rather, that the so called people in the light or NFF have not had any effect on preventing the very seriious decline we see around us and even here, a place where it should be buzzing.
But my job is done Ellis, I have put my uttmost into it despite the lack of any real engagement in the conversation from your side and lack of answering questions so I will leave it there and you to God's dealings as you continue to see yourself as a leader of men and so will heap a large amount of judgement upon yourself at the end.
Brenda, this is the most profound and revelatory statement you have made in all the discussions we have had since you were on the site a number of years ago. Your preconceived notions of what I am saying have blinded your eyes. May God grant you the grace to look at our conversations without these blinders in front of you so that you may come to an understanding of what I have been writing to you all this time.
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Ellis, I know what you are saying: that holiness is the listening to and obeying the voice of Jesus Christ. That is not enough and impossible without the new nature, which makes us like Christ, to have His nature manifested in us, and therefore to have no sin at all even in the thoughts. If you can say your life is now a copy of the way Jesus lived, and still have thoughts that are not in line with the sermon on the mount then that is blasphemy.
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