New Foundation Fellowship

Reproclaiming the Everlasting Gospel

Following a lengthy discussion, Brenda Redshaw (of this site), asked me to look into what Fox had to say concerning Romans chapter 7. In searching for “Rom. vi” or “Rom. 7” I turned up very few references. So I turned to searches for the concepts or phrases Fox used when he identified Romans 7 in his writing. There may be a better approach, or I perhaps could have used better phrases. I hope all readers will do their own searches and contribute what they find of significance. Here is what I found.

Fox does not deal with Romans 7 exclusively but brings together concepts from chap. 6 (“newness of life”), chapter 7 (“oldness of the letter”), chapter 8 (“the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death”), chapter 10 (“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness’ sake.”), and many other parts of the Bible. Fox’s associations of scripture passages range the full gamut of the scriptures. See for example:

And as Moses in the old covenant sprinkled the people with the blood, the life of beasts; so Christ our high priest sprinkles the hearts and consciences of his people in the new covenant with his blood, his life, from their dead works, that they may serve the living God in newness of life:' and as the blood of the old covenant was the life of the beasts, so the blood of the everlasting covenant is the life of Christ the Lamb, ordained before the foundation of the world, who is the great shepherd of his sheep, through the blood of his everlasting covenant he makes his saints perfect in every good work to do his will, working in them that which is well pleasing in his sight.' (Works, Vol. V, pp.362-363)

Here we have the Pentateuch, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Hebrews, and Romans all rolled together to form the picture of the distinction between the newness of life and the oldness of the letter. Fox used this distinction over and over, portraying the contrast between those who live by the law of life in Christ Jesus and those who live by some other law. See his comment in Vol. 7 (pp. 88-89 )

For ye may see, how far many may go, and did go, and were led out of many things; yet did turn again into the world. So mind your present guide, and your present condition, and your call, what ye are called from, and what ye are called to; for whom the Lord hath called and chosen, are the Lord's freemen. And so, abide every one in your calling with God, where God hath called you, and there walk in newness of life, and not in the oldness of the letter; for he that turneth from him that calleth, walks not in the life of God. Therefore, all Friends, walk in the truth and in the love of it up to God; and every one in particular mind your guide, that ye may grow up in wisdom, and improve your own talents, and the gift which God hath given you. And take heed of words without life, for they tend to draw you out of the power to live above the truth, and out of your conditions; which nature will not have peace, except it have words. But every particular submit to that which is of God in you, to guide you to God.

Paul contrasted life under the law (portrayed in Romans 7) with life under Christ who is the end of the law for Righteousness sake (Romans 8 and 10). His rhetorical question and answer, which many quote as proof that man can’t live righteously before God, that sin will be taken care of finally at some future time, is:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Rom. 7:24-25)

But for Fox, Romans 7 is not the end of the story. Like Edward Burrough, Fox could say, “But of that birth are we which hath no crown, no glory, nor rest under the sun: a birth is brought forth amongst us which is heir of another kingdom, and possessor of another crown, whose glorying is in the Lord all the day long; and he is our refuge, our rock, and our fortress against all our enemies.” (Vol. III, p. 6) In epistle CIV, Fox exhorts Friends to dwell in the power of God and to know (that is experience) the power of God to keep you. In epistle CV, he spells out how this is to be done.

CV.—Concerning the Light. (To be read amongst Friends.) All Friends every where, keep your meetings waiting in the light which comes from the Lord Jesus Christ; so will ye receive power from him, and have the refreshing springs of life opened to your souls, and be kept sensible of the tender mercies of the Lord. And know one another in the life, (ye that be turned to the light,) and in the power, which comes from the Lord Jesus Christ, who is your light, who is your life; that ye may all in the life see Christ to reign in you, who is the truth, from whence ye have light. Here the old serpent is chained, and put into the bottomless pit, and Christ is known to reign, and ye to reign with him; heirs with him, joint-heirs, and heirs of God. Here is the dominion received and witnessed of the world that is without end, and the promise of life from the Father of life to you, who are turned to the son, who to the Father is the way, who is the mediator between the Father and you. All wait to receive the everlasting priest, the everlasting covenant of God, of light, life, and peace; into which covenant no sin, no darkness, nor death comes, but the blessing of the only wise God, the Father of life, here is known, where no earthly man can approach. But he that is of God knows God's truth; and he that is of the devil, doth his lusts, who was a murderer from the beginning, in whom is no truth, who in it abode not. So he it is that speaks a lie, and speaks of himself, and not God's word; for he is out of the truth. But ye that are turned to the light walk in the light, walk in the truth, where no darkness is; with which light, that never changeth, ye may come to see that which was in the beginning, before the world was, where there is no shadow nor darkness. In which light as ye wait, ye will come to receive into your hearts the word of faith, which reconciles to God, and is as a hammer, to beat down all that is contrary; and as a sword, to divide the precious from the vile; and as a fire, to burn up that which is contrary to the precious: which word is pure, and endureth for ever; which was in the beginning, and is now again witnessed and made manifest. Therefore wait in the light, that ye may all receive it, the same word that ever was, which the scriptures were given forth from.

Thus, with Fox’s admonition, we do not find ourselves in a state of impotency having to wait for some future time when Christ will take away sin. Neither are we consigned to struggle and failure until some further work of grace descends upon us. Fox wrote in Vol. III:

Every man that cometh into the world, though they be in the first Adam, have a light from Christ the second Adam, the bishop of their souls. So every one being turned to the light which Christ the second Adam hath enlightened them withal, they shall see the bishop of their souls, Christ the power of God, which is immortal, and brings the immortal soul into the immortal God. Christ is their sanctification, who sanctifies their spirits, and bodies, and brings the soul up into God, from whom it came, whereby they come to be one soul. For in the lusts of the world, and the affections of it, is the war against it, and there are the powers of wickedness. The soul must be in the higher power, higher than the flesh, which stains the man, spirit and body, and the powers of wickedness. So the light being turned to, man receiveth the spirit of God, which sanctifies him, the spirit of sanctification in Christ Jesus the sanctification and redemption. So every man that cometh into the world has a light from Christ Jesus, the way out of the fall, the second Adam, and receiving the light he receives his redemption and sanctification, whereby his spirit, body, and soul are sanctified. (p.168)

Views: 1047

Comment by Ellis Hein on 2ndMo. 4, 2018 at 0:00

Refusing to hear the voice of Christ as he speaks to you in his light is the foundation of all sin. Hearing his voice as he speaks to you in his light is the foundation of all righteousness.

Now, your statement

If you do not trust Christ to deliver you instantly from all sin, and are trusting in something else, like your ability to listen and obey His voice then you are not a believer in Fox's doctrine nor Christ's way of salvation.

is contradicted by Fox who stated:

And now, all people, if ye be not conformable to the death of Christ, that hath tasted death for you all, then you are yet alive in your sin ; and if ye be not conformed to the image of the son of God, who bruises the serpent's head, and destroys the devil and his works, what image then are ye conformable to? All your profession, without ye be conformed to the image of the son of God, is nothing ; which who do so conform, are in the heavenly unity and conformity, and Christ, who tasted death for every man, (for all died in Adam,) he enlightens every man that comes into the world, with his heavenly light, which is the life in him, the word, by whom all things were made. Now, every man and woman being turned to the light, which is the life in Christ, and believing in it, and walking in it, is the means by which they may be made conformable to the image of the son of God, and so come into unity, and conformity, and fellowship, one with another, and with the Father and the Son.
Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 2ndMo. 4, 2018 at 13:46

I am not disagreeing with you that we must turn to the light which is the means by which we are conformed as it says here: Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

We must come to Christ, presenting our bodies, which means complete consecration and willingness to accept the perfect will of God for our lives so that He may transform us. You are however saying that the transformation is a gradual one which is not the idea of scripture at all, when Paul says that we must put off the old and put on the new.

Christ perfected our sanctification for us 2.000 years ago so it is already done. If we do not accept that by faith and walk in it or in the light which means the knowledge of it then we rely on our flesh to listen and obey. This is the error the Galatians made. As I said there is no man alive that can say that he reached the sinless state of Fox and othe others, your way. Show me one. Tell me you are one, without sin. There is no way, unless it is the way I have said and then you will find many with that testimony including Fox who wrote in times past that by faith they were made perfect and holy.

Anyone who rejects this message stands in great danger of hardening their heart even more than it is so.

Comment by Allistair Lomax on 2ndMo. 4, 2018 at 14:40

Hi Ellis,

You should see a small cross in the top right corner of your post. Clicking that should delete it.

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 2ndMo. 4, 2018 at 15:07

This 'light' that God has already sanctified us and all we need to do is consecrate ourselves and present our bodies and this sanctification becomes active.

Preaching this message is what distinguished the Quakers, everything else was downstream from this message and this was the reason they were hounded and persecuted, and anyone since then from other denominations receives the same treatment, though not as severe as the early Friends.

Because Quakers stopped preaching this message, they have fallen into error with lack of power and lack of the Spirit. There is no hope for them now unless they return to the message from Fox. Methodism and Nazerenes have gone down the plughole over this and it is possibly too late now for Quakers too.

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 2ndMo. 4, 2018 at 18:45

Comment by Brenda Redshaw just nowDelete Comment

For all those who read the sermon on the mount, reading Christs words or claiming belief in scripture, when they cannot acknowledge His sayings as applying to them. They are only professors according to George Fox and not justified if they plead gradual sanctification and therefore not in obedience to all the words of scripture.

"Friends,

No one is justified breaking the commands of Christ;
no one is justified living in iniquity;
and no one is justified in only professing Christ's words,
and the prophets', and the apostles' words, and living out of their lives;
and no one is justified living in the first birth and nature,
and false faith and hope, which does not purify, as God is pure.
No man is justified not believing in the light,
as Christ commands, but with the light is condemned;

for the light is the condemnation of all those who walk contrary to it;
therefore mind the power of God.
No man is justified, acting contrary to that spirit which convinces.

George Fox

 

Comment by Ellis Hein on 2ndMo. 4, 2018 at 19:06

Dan Davenport asked me to post the following:

Works of George Fox, Volume 1, pages 76 and 77 {1647} At another time I saw the great love of God, and was filled with admiration at the infiniteness of it. I saw what was cast out from God, and what entered into God’s kingdom; and how by Jesus, the opener of the door by his heavenly key, the entrance was given. I saw death, how it had passed upon all men, and oppressed the seed of God in man, and in me; and how I in the seed came forth, and what the promise was to. Yet it was so, that there seemed to be two pleadings in me; and questionings arose in my mind about gifts and prophecies, and I was tempted again to despair, as if I had sinned against the holy ghost. I was in great perplexity and trouble for many days; yet I gave up myself to the Lord still. One day, when I had been walking solitarily abroad, and was come home, I was taken up in the love of God, so that I could not but admire the greatness of his love; and while I was in that condition, it was opened unto me by the eternal light and power, and I therein clearly saw, that all was done and to be done in and by Christ; and how he conquers and destroys this tempter, the devil, and all his works, and is atop of him; and that all these troubles were good for me, and temptations for the trial of my faith, which Christ had given me. The Lord opened me, that I saw through all these troubles and temptations. My living faith was raised, that I saw all was done by Christ the life, and my belief was in him. When at any time my condition was veiled, my secret belief was staid firm, and hope underneath held me, as an anchor in the bottom of the sea, and anchored my immortal soul to its bishop, causing it to swim above the sea, the world, where all the raging waves, foul weather, tempests, and temptations are. But Oh! then did I see my troubles, trials, and temptations more clearly than ever I had done. As the light appeared, all appeared that is out of the light; darkness, death, temptations, the unrighteous, the ungodly; all was manifest and seen in the light. After this, a pure fire appeared in me: then I saw how he sat as a refiner’s fire, and as the fuller’s soap. Then the spiritual discerning came into me; by which I discerned my own thoughts, groans, and sighs; and what it was that veiled me, and what it was that opened me. That which could not abide in the patience, nor endure the fire, in the light I found to be the groans of the flesh, that could not give up to the will of God; which had so veiled me, that I could not be patient in all trials, troubles, anguishes, and perplexities; could not give up self to die by the cross, the power of God, that the living and quickened might follow him, and that that which would cloud and veil from the presence of Christ, that which the sword of the spirit cuts down, and which must die, might not be kept alive. I discerned the groans of the spirit, which opened me, and made intercession to God: in which spirit is the true waiting upon God, for the redemption of the body, and of the whole creation. By this true spirit, in which the true sighing is, I saw over the false sighings and groanings. By this invisible spirit I discerned all the false hearing, the false seeing, and the false smelling, which was above the spirit, quenching and grieving it; and that all that were there were in confusion and deceit, where the false asking and praying is, in deceit and atop, in that nature and tongue that takes God’s holy name in vain, wallows in the Egyptian sea, and asketh but hath not; for they hate his light, resist the holy ghost, turn the grace into wantonness, rebel against the spirit, and are erred from the faith they should ask in, and from the spirit they should pray by. He that knoweth these things in the true spirit can witness them. The divine light of Christ manifesteth all things, and the spiritual fire trieth and severeth all things.
Comment by Ellis Hein on 2ndMo. 4, 2018 at 19:23

Dan Davenport asked me to post the following:

Works of George Fox, Volume 1, pages 76 and 77 {1647} At another time I saw the great love of God, and was filled with admiration at the infiniteness of it. I saw what was cast out from God, and what entered into God’s kingdom; and how by Jesus, the opener of the door by his heavenly key, the entrance was given. I saw death, how it had passed upon all men, and oppressed the seed of God in man, and in me; and how I in the seed came forth, and what the promise was to. Yet it was so, that there seemed to be two pleadings in me; and questionings arose in my mind about gifts and prophecies, and I was tempted again to despair, as if I had sinned against the holy ghost. I was in great perplexity and trouble for many days; yet I gave up myself to the Lord still. One day, when I had been walking solitarily abroad, and was come home, I was taken up in the love of God, so that I could not but admire the greatness of his love; and while I was in that condition, it was opened unto me by the eternal light and power, and I therein clearly saw, that all was done and to be done in and by Christ; and how he conquers and destroys this tempter, the devil, and all his works, and is atop of him; and that all these troubles were good for me, and temptations for the trial of my faith, which Christ had given me. The Lord opened me, that I saw through all these troubles and temptations. My living faith was raised, that I saw all was done by Christ the life, and my belief was in him. When at any time my condition was veiled, my secret belief was staid firm, and hope underneath held me, as an anchor in the bottom of the sea, and anchored my immortal soul to its bishop, causing it to swim above the sea, the world, where all the raging waves, foul weather, tempests, and temptations are. But Oh! then did I see my troubles, trials, and temptations more clearly than ever I had done. As the light appeared, all appeared that is out of the light; darkness, death, temptations, the unrighteous, the ungodly; all was manifest and seen in the light. After this, a pure fire appeared in me: then I saw how he sat as a refiner’s fire, and as the fuller’s soap. Then the spiritual discerning came into me; by which I discerned my own thoughts, groans, and sighs; and what it was that veiled me, and what it was that opened me. That which could not abide in the patience, nor endure the fire, in the light I found to be the groans of the flesh, that could not give up to the will of God; which had so veiled me, that I could not be patient in all trials, troubles, anguishes, and perplexities; could not give up self to die by the cross, the power of God, that the living and quickened might follow him, and that that which would cloud and veil from the presence of Christ, that which the sword of the spirit cuts down, and which must die, might not be kept alive. I discerned the groans of the spirit, which opened me, and made intercession to God: in which spirit is the true waiting upon God, for the redemption of the body, and of the whole creation. By this true spirit, in which the true sighing is, I saw over the false sighings and groanings. By this invisible spirit I discerned all the false hearing, the false seeing, and the false smelling, which was above the spirit, quenching and grieving it; and that all that were there were in confusion and deceit, where the false asking and praying is, in deceit and atop, in that nature and tongue that takes God’s holy name in vain, wallows in the Egyptian sea, and asketh but hath not; for they hate his light, resist the holy ghost, turn the grace into wantonness, rebel against the spirit, and are erred from the faith they should ask in, and from the spirit they should pray by. He that knoweth these things in the true spirit can witness them. The divine light of Christ manifesteth all things, and the spiritual fire trieth and severeth all things.
Comment by Ellis Hein on 2ndMo. 4, 2018 at 19:34

Brenda you stated your challenge:

As I said there is no man alive that can say that he reached the sinless state of Fox and othe others, your way. Show me one. Tell me you are one, without sin. There is no way, unless it is the way I have said and then you will find many with that testimony including Fox who wrote in times past that by faith they were made perfect and holy.

As you have said before, the proof of the pudding is in eating. I have eaten your "pudding" and found it to be poisonous. It does not lead to life. I have eaten the "pudding" of hearing and obeying the voice of Christ and have the testimony within that he has made of my heart an acceptable habitation. He has opened my eye, opened my ear, and made my heart willing in the day of his power. He leads me in the pastures of life and gives me to drink at the waters of life. This you would call a state of sin? It did not come by "your way," but by Christ's way, who has lead and still leads me in the paths of righteousness.

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 2ndMo. 4, 2018 at 23:25

Dan thank you for that wonderful quote from George. I am enjoying reading him so much atm and think I could spend the rest of my life just reading him. There is so much in there from the mysticism tradition, which  concerns the process of coming under conviction of sin or convincement, and the terrible sufferings involved in this true 'dark night of the soul' the true one being about the spiritual realm. It is just as you say Ellis - poison that has to be taken but one cannot reach the flaming sword without it. We must come under the judgement of God in order for us to be cleansed by the fire. We naturally recoil from it but it is a wonderful thing to see ourselves as He sees us knowing that He does it so that we can be transformed.

We see that this expereince is very early in Fox's training for ministry and I am in awe that he remembered it so clearly. What a man! Scripture says that the true way is the hard way and full of difficulties. It is easy to be lulled in a false smooth way that gets one nowhere.

Ellis you never say much about sin but the scriptures talks about it all the time.

Comment by Ellis Hein on 2ndMo. 5, 2018 at 14:16

Brenda, this is the word of the Lord to you that you may look at what you are doing and discern the fruits of your teacher, who is full of twisting, turning, and shadows.

There are two breads that mankind can feed upon. The poison I wrote about is the bread of this world, supplied by the god of this world. This poison closes the ear and blinds the eye and leaves man in darkness and death. It leads only to damnation. This poison you would uphold? And proclaim a benefit?

The bread from heaven is come that whosoever eats of it will never die. I have written testimony of this bread and the effects of living by this bread. You have twisted these words and attempted to trample upon the testimony, but you cannot for it is out of your reach. Discern what nature it is that would trample upon the pearls of God, the precious things that come by hearing and obeying the voice of Christ.

Dan Davenport sent a quote from Fox in effort to turn you from your headstrong rejection of Fox’s message. Though you profess to love the writings of Fox, your words ring hollow and false. You have been engaged in little else, throughout these discussions, than twisting what Fox had to say, and ignoring those parts that won’t twist to your purpose.

These things I write that you may see what you have within you. And in that light wait to be taught the way out.

Add a Comment

You need to be a member of New Foundation Fellowship to add comments!

Join New Foundation Fellowship

The NFF exists to preach the Christian Message that was proclaimed by the Early Friends. Christ has come to teach his People himself

Visit Our Literature Site

To find New Foundation Fellowship books and materials, go to our literature site. Items for free download can be found on our Downloads page.

Want to join this New Foundation Web Site?

Please note also that this site is primarily a means for the New Foundation Fellowship to preach the Gospel, and an online community for established New Foundation Workers.

If you are thinking of signing up, may we please direct you to this note, before signing up?


Allistair Lomax, on behalf of the site working committee

NFF Events

Please Note

Blocked Email Domains

Created by Allistair Lomax 7thMo 26, 2013 at 11:13am. Last updated by Allistair Lomax 7thMo 26, 2013.

The 'Do-Not-Reply' Note

Created by Allistair Lomax 7thMo 28, 2011 at 9:38pm. Last updated by Allistair Lomax 12thMo 29, 2018.

Contact Address for New Foundation Fellowship

Created by Allistair Lomax 5thMo 25, 2011 at 8:11pm. Last updated by Allistair Lomax 3rdMo 8, 2013.

© 2019   Created by Allistair Lomax.   Powered by

Badges  |  Report an Issue  |  Terms of Service