New Foundation Fellowship

Reproclaiming the Everlasting Gospel

John Wesley and the Holiness Movement.

Hello long time ago friends,

First I have a question. Is there a better recordng than the one I found here of Lewis Benson speaking on:

The Gospel Preached by John Wesley and its Echoes in Modern Christi...

I was very interested to find this as I am looking at Wesley's role and influence in the later Holiness Movement and the error he brought into it, that is to say, that justification and sanctification are two seperate events, where Fox and the Quakers placed them together (and in fact Calvinists). When I have spoken on holiness in the past, I wonder if people have confused me as holding to this error.

But first I will wait to see if there is a better recording before I will have to suffer another hour of trying to hear Benson. Thank you.

Brenda

Views: 267

Comment by Ellis Hein on 1stMo. 7, 2018 at 22:32

Brenda, I have a photo copy of the 5 lecture series containing the particular lecture you are trying to listen to. If you would like, I can send you this series of lectures. It is perhaps more readable than the tape is audible. Let me know what you would like.

Ellis

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 1stMo. 7, 2018 at 23:15

Oh yes please thanks.

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 1stMo. 8, 2018 at 5:29

Ellis thanks but I could not open the attachment nor reply to the email thanks.

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 1stMo. 8, 2018 at 11:37

I did get it thank you and have looked at it.

It is important to understand, that Pentecostals and charismatics, do not, and never did, have the same understanding of the baptism of the Spirit that Holiness teachers preached. The break away began when someone began to 'speak in tongues' at a meeting, and it spread. The Pentecostal understanding is that the baptism brings power to witness and speak in tongues, and has nothing to do with the Holiness teaching that it is about cleansing and enabling the believer to walk as Jesus walked that is to say, without sin and become what God had intended for man befoe the fall. To be restored to the position of Adam. Pentecostal baptism is a counterfeit.

The doctrine is called entire sanctification, and that is what it is. It has been around since apostolic times but as Fox said, the proponents had to flee to the wilderness and great apostacy came up on the church meaning that it was no longer being taught as it was by a marginal few called Celtic believers led by Pelagius (do not believe the hype about him that Augustine spread).

No longer would the church accept this teaching and no surprise as it takes away the authority of priests and teachers, as the person who has been ES'ed is now in union with Christ and hears His voice. Whenever it has shown its head, it meets great opposition from the exisiting churches and as in Fox's day there will be martyrs.

God has always kept a remnant though in seclusion in times of decay, and will raise up ne or two to preach it again. Fox was called out by God after he had his own experience of it when he came up through the flaming sword, it being the fire that cleanses as it is always spoken of in scripture from the burning bush onwards. He made a clear testimony to what had happened to him and that he was now without sin. I will quote him from his Journal if you like but you must be familiar with it.

Now the problem with Benson and anyone who has not been through this further dimension of the Christian life as did Fox, is that hey have little understanding of it. Some people have read widely about it and can expalin it but still, they lack the inward witness and anyone who has the witness can tell staright away and is not genuine and as Fox says should not be teaching it.

This is the problem with Wesley who knew it very well but has never given a testimony to it.  There is no doubt, that like Fox anyone who does go through it does testify. It is such a profound thing that hey have to. And once they do the gates of hell upon up on them.

There are two types of believers, one say that man cannot stop sinning in this life and the other say that he can with the aid of the power of Christ in His resurrection. Paul said in Roamns 6:

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

For he that is dead is freed from sin.

If the body of sin or the carnal nature or the old man has been destroyed, there cannot be sin. More later......

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 1stMo. 8, 2018 at 11:51

Chapter 2; Now I was come up in spirit through the flaming sword, into the paradise of God. All things were new; and all the creation gave unto me another smell than before, beyond what words can utter. I knew nothing but pureness, and innocency, and righteousness; being renewed into the image of God by Christ Jesus, to the state of Adam, which he was in before he fell. The creation was opened to me; and it was showed me how all things had their names given them according to their nature and virtue.

I was at a stand in my mind whether I should practise physic for the good of mankind, seeing the nature and virtues of things were so opened to me by the Lord. But I was immediately taken up in spirit to see into another or more steadfast state than Adam's innocency, even into a state in Christ Jesus that should never fall. And the Lord showed me that such as were faithful to Him, in the power and light of Christ, should come up into that state in which Adam was before he fell; in which the admirable works of the creation, and the virtues thereof, may be known, through the openings of that divine Word of wisdom and power by which they were made.

Fox said that he had entered a state where he was pure within and of the innocency of Adam but God showed him there was a further state to enter, the state that Jesus Christ was in, that is to say holiness or entire sanctification. 

Fox is speaking of three states that he believers can reach and in each one, Christ is revealed more fully in His offices. We are not to just imitate Christ or follow His instructions either in scripture or by hearing directly, but we are to be transformed by God so that we like Christ are in union with God. This teaching has been around all of the time in church history but on the margins and not in the churches as Fox said. It can be read about in some of the church fathers and the Catholic church has a tradition of the via triplex but the teaching is always rejected by the leaders.

With Fox, it was the first time that a group would form themselves visibly around the doctrine after the terrible times of the dark ages, so called because of the suppression of this truth.

The gospel according to Fox was this - the good news for believers that Christ will sanctify so they no longer have to struggle with the enemy within that Paul struggled with in Romans 7. This is indeed good news........

Comment by Ellis Hein on 1stMo. 8, 2018 at 12:26

Brenda, you will get no further this time than last by attacking the work of Lewis Benson. I advise you to drop it or find some other forum. Your previous comments and posts vanished  when you removed yourself from this site in 2012. What I am seeing here is no different than my records of what you were posting then.

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 1stMo. 8, 2018 at 13:42

Ellis

I only stated a fact - Benson never said he had reached the state that Fox reached where there was no sin. How is that attack?

Comment by Ellis Hein on 1stMo. 8, 2018 at 15:13

Lewis never said he lived in a state of sin. This is not a discussion that is edifying to anyone and it will not continue. 

Comment by Ellis Hein on 1stMo. 8, 2018 at 15:35
Fox is speaking of three states that he believers can reach and in each one, Christ is revealed more fully in His offices. We are not to just imitate Christ or follow His instructions either in scripture or by hearing directly, but we are to be transformed by God so that we like Christ are in union with God.

You are taking Fox and applying your own theology to what he says. Look at 

Ye that know the power of God and are come to it, which is the cross of Christ, that crucifies you to the state that Adam and Eve were in in the fall, and so to the world, by this power of God ye come to see the state that Adam and Eve were in before they fell: which power of God is the cross, in which stands the ever- lasting glory, which brings up into the righteousness, holiness, and image of God, and crucifies to the unrighteousness, unholiness, and image of satan, that Adam and Eve and their sons and daughters are in under the fall. Through this power of God ye come to see the state they were in before they fell; yea, and I say, to a higher state, to the seed Christ, the second Adam, by whom all things were made. For man hath been driven from God. All Adam and Eve’s sons and daughters, being in the state of the fall in the earth, are driven from God. But it is said, “The church is in God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ:” so who come to the church, which is in God the Father of Christ, they must come to God again, and so out of the state that Adam and his chil- dren are in in the fall, out of the image of God, out of righteousness and holiness; and they must come into the righteousness, into the true holi- ness, the image of God, and so out of the earth whither man hath been driven, when they come to the church which is in God. The way to this is Christ, the light, the life, the truth, the saviour, the redeemer, the sanctifier, and the justifier, in and through whose power, light, and life, conversion, regeneration, and translation is known from death to life, from darkness to light, and from the power of satan to God again. These are members of the true church, who know the work of rege- neration in the operation and feeling of it; (Works Vol. 1, p.311)

The transformation that brings one to sit down in Christ that never fell is hearing and following Christ the light, the life, the truth... There is no other transforming power.

Comment by Brenda Redshaw on 1stMo. 8, 2018 at 16:11

Ye that know the power of God and are come to it, which is the cross of Christ, that crucifies you to the state that Adam and Eve were in in the fall, and so to the world, by this power of God ye come to see the state that Adam and Eve were in before they fell:

Fox is talking of those who are believers and have come to the point where you are willing to consent to the crucifixion of the old nature since you have failed to  improve it by good works and Paul talks about in Romans 7. Through the revelation of not just what Christ has done on the cross but has to include us there too crucified with Him, and once we consent to give up all our rights and lives without measure to Christ the work is done and we are now in the state of innocency and able to obey Christ as Adam did before he fell. We are now without sin but as Fox says there is a further state whereby we are perfect like Christ 'to a higher state, to the seed Christ, the second Adam, by whom all things were made'. The previous state of Adam likeness is not full union. It is indeed to follow the light but it is wrought by faith alone. That is not to say that we do not need to do our part, we do but it is by faith - justification is by faith.

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