Hope and Praise

Comment by Ellis Hein on 2ndMo. 29, 2016 at 16:21

Rhonda, Is Thomas More the title or the author? and could you describe why that is so different from other books you have seen previously?

Comment by Rhonda Fuller on 2ndMo. 29, 2016 at 17:07

Hello, Ellis,

I had a glance at the cover. It looked like a book on Thomas More, but I can't say for certain. As for the difference--again, only glancing at the book and quite some time ago--the one that comes to mind was more of a "new age" character.

Comment by Ellis Hein on 2ndMo. 29, 2016 at 19:37

Thank you. Another question: is the book being "more of a new age character" a sign of hope? or a cause for concern? Or did that have nothing to do with your hope for the Lord's working being received? (Oops! that turned into three questions.)

Comment by Rhonda Fuller on 3rdMo. 1, 2016 at 22:18

You asked why Thomas More was different from the other book(s). Reviewing your initial remark, I realize I didn't completely answer your question because I made an assumption. Thomas More was a Christian from the 15/16th Centuries. I assumed about the person as well, my assumption being she didn't read books of Christian theme. My assumption could be a result of past dialogues with her. New age spirituality is of concern. I quit Meetings because of these old but new ideas. Jesus sent me back to proselytize and re-establish the true Quaker religion/faith. I couldn't have gone of my own accord. I am too weak on my own. He gives me power. He teaches me. He comforts me after a difficult Meeting. 

A question for you. What is the nature of George Fox's faith?

Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 2, 2016 at 13:19

Rhonda, that is an excellent question. I will begin by mentioning the ground of Fox's (and that of the early Friends) faith. Their faith was the substance and the evidence of their joining with the work of Christ within and among them. Its author was Christ himself and was not of their own making. Therefore Fox's and their faith was a living faith, a dynamic faith that was sustained and grown upon the food of "every word that proceeds from the mouth of God". This is not the same thing as reading something in a book, even the Bible, and telling yourself or others that because the book says....therefore you can believe it to be so. "These are the members of the true church who know the work of regeneration in the operation and feeling of it..." said Fox (Works, Vol. II, p. 311-312) Fox's faith was grounded upon this knowing in the operation and feeling... All other faith, be it as Biblically based as can be, is false. That faith tries to believe something that has no substance and all the evidence points against.

Have I answered the question you are asking?

Comment by Rhonda Fuller on 3rdMo. 2, 2016 at 17:56

I truly enjoy our discussions. We never did complete the initial one on the supernatural, but that is my fault. Yes and no, you answered my question.

The Pharisees had no faith because scripture was a stumbling block for them. They had the words of God but not his Spirit. The same can be said of preachers for hire. Not only do they preach that which they do not know, they employ the copy (or shadow) of the Old Covenant, which is gone, superseded by the New Covenant Jesus arranged, with their ceremonies and rituals. There is no other faith except that authored by Jesus Christ. Just as there is no other meeting/church save that of the living stones gathered in Spirit and Truth to worship God. A building is only shelter. 

However, the Bible is the words of God which points and directs us to Jesus Christ. And its depth can only be discerned through the Holy Spirit, which is a main tenet of Quaker faith. 

My brother is a Congregationalist. He loves the Lord. But he is always saying he's a sinner. I have told him not a few times that Jesus died for our sins and when we accept his offer of salvation, we move from death (sin) to life. You're not a sinner, I say to him. Saying he's a sinner comes out of his mouth automatically. I also tell him Jesus Christ is his teacher, so when you move from death to life, Jesus is there to instruct us, rebuke us, guide us, counsel us, teach us the ways of God. He somewhat allows that and has grown in openings from the Spirit. But he never goes to the source to know Jesus, preferring, I guess, to get information from a third party, i.e., books that tell him how to blah blah blah. For someone who has been a Christian for most of his adult life, I can only think how much richer would he be if he would just follow the first tenets of Quaker faith (number one being, all the glory is to Jesus, ergo no third party).

I know that George Fox read the Bible in the Spirit, otherwise he couldn't have said what he said, preached what he preached. I also know that Christ allowed him to seek the advice of preachers, priests, professors, and man unto despair so that he would understand, would know Jesus was the only source. And in his readings of the Bible, it was the Spirit that quickened him. Not only did George Fox preach, but what he preached was given to him by the Holy Spirit, the same as scripture was given to the men who wrote it. George Fox was in the Spirit when he did his best preaching and recitation of his life. 

We, as Quakers, are fortunate to have as a progenitor George Fox. I thanked God the other day for leading me to Quaker Meeting. It's one of the great blessings he's given me. The point is though, as George Fox Quakers, we don't just know about the Spirit, we seek to live in the Spirit. We don't just know the words Christ is come to teach his people himself, we experience him teaching us things that we haven't yet seen in the Bible or any other place. The more we open ourselves to that which is invisible and unlikely in a material world, the deeper and richer is our union with Christ Jesus and all He reveals to us. George Fox had his own encounter with Jesus on the road to Damascus (there is one, even Christ Jesus . . .) resulting in him becoming an apostle, so to speak. Paul never put himself as the source of his knowledge and neither did George Fox. And we are so blessed for that. 

So faith cannot be practiced. It is given to us and when we allow it, it grows beyond what we can imagine. I see a lot of people practice faith.

Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 4, 2016 at 12:45

I can't tell if you are disagreeing with my short comment on the nature of Fox's faith or not. You say "yes and no" regarding whether or not I have answered your question. So, I will leave that be until I see if there is more to be said on that subject.

You bring up a number of points that could be explored further.

1. Jesus is the new covenant, not the arranger of a new covenant.
2. The concept of salvation that leaves one with the sense of being a "saved sinner".
3. "George Fox was in the Spirit when he did his best preaching..." When did Fox do his worst preaching? What prompted his worst preaching?
4. "The more we open ourselves to that which is invisible and unlikely in a material world, the deeper and richer is our union with Christ Jesus and all He reveals to us." Is it possible to have union with Christ Jesus and not be opened to that which is invisible and unlikely in a material world? Again, this gets back to the questions of: What is salvation? What are we saved from? How is that accomplished?
5. What is Fox talking about when he said, "These are the members of the true church who know the work of regeneration in the operation and feeling of it..." (Works, Vol. II, p. 311-312)? I can supply more of the context of that quote if you do not have it.

That is probably enough for now.

Comment by Rhonda Fuller on 3rdMo. 5, 2016 at 1:08

5. I haven't come across that quote yet, or have but didn't remark it. So yes, if I could have greater context, that would be great. Do you know where else it is in his writings.

4. No. Jesus Christ is supernatural. If one doesn't accept that which is invisible, he is confined to the materialist box. No matter how large the box, it still has a ceiling. Salvation is reconciliation with God. Salvation is no longer being an enemy of God. We are saved from our sins, which, stated in other words, is disobedience to God. John 5:24 says exactly how we are saved. 

3. Why would one's best of anything imply the opposite for all other efforts? I did not imply he had episodes of worst preaching. Have you never been in the Spirit wherein you were given knowledge, openings, quickenings, visions, etc. that surpassed your normal state of comprehension and discourse? This ties in with the supernatural. And the supernatural is tied to faith.

2. "Saved sinner." I don't think I used that phrase. 

1. "For this reason Christ is the one who arranges a new covenant . . ." He. 9:15. Good News Bible. I didn't remember the verse accurately. My error.

Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 5, 2016 at 12:42

Here is the full text of the letter Fox wrote:

All my dear friends in the noble seed of God, who have known his
power, life, and presence among you, let it be your joy to hear or see
the springs of life break forth in any; through which ye have all unity
in the same, feeling life and power. And above all things take heed of
judging any one openly in your meetings, except they be openly pro-
fane or rebellious, such as are out of the truth; that by the power, life,
and wisdom ye may stand over them, and by it answer the witness of
God in the world, that such, whom ye bear your testimony against, are
none of you: so that therein the truth may stand clear and single. But
such as are tender, if they should be moved to bubble forth a few
words, and speak in the seed and Lamb’s power, suffer and bear that;
that is, the tender. And if they should go beyond their measure, bear
it in the meeting for peace and order’s sake, and that the spirits of the
world be not moved against you. But when the meeting is done, then if
any be moved to speak to them, between you and them, one or two of
you that feel it in the life, do it in the love and wisdom that is pure and
gentle from above, for love is that which edifies, bears all things, suffers
long, and fulfils the law. So in this ye have order and edification, ye have
wisdom to preserve you all wise and in patience; which takes away the
occasion of stumbling the weak, and the occasion of the spirits of the
world to get up: but in the royal seed, the heavy stone, ye keep down all
that is wrong, and by it answer that of God in all, and keep down the bad.
For ye will hear, see, and feel the power of God preaching, as your faith
is wholly in it, (when ye do not hear words), to bind, to chain, to limit,
to frustrate, that nothing shall rise nor come forth but what is in the
power; for with that ye will hold back, with that ye will let up and open
every spring, plant, and spark; in which will be your joy and refresh-
ment in the power of God. Ye that know the power of God and are
come to it, which is the cross of Christ, that crucifies you to the state
that Adam and Eve were in in the fall, and so to the world, by this power
of God ye come to see the state that Adam and Eve were in before
they fell: which power of God is the cross, in which stands the ever-
lasting glory, which brings up into the righteousness, holiness, and image
of God, and crucifies to the unrighteousness, unholiness, and image of
satan, that Adam and Eve and their sons and daughters are in under
the fall. Through this power of God ye come to see the state they
were in before they fell; yea, and I say, to a higher state, to the seed
Christ, the second Adam, by whom all things were made. For man
hath been driven from God. All Adam and Eve’s sons and daughters,
being in the state of the fall in the earth, are driven from God. But it
is said, “The church is in God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
so who come to the church, which is in God the Father of Christ, they
must come to God again, and so out of the state that Adam and his chil-
dren are in in the fall, out of the image of God, out of righteousness and
holiness; and they must come into the righteousness, into the true holi-
ness, the image of God, and so out of the earth whither man hath been
driven, when they come to the church which is in God. The way to
this is Christ, the light, the life, the truth, the saviour, the redeemer, the
sanctifier, and the justifier, in and through whose power, light, and life,
conversion, regeneration, and translation is known from death to life,
from darkness to light, and from the power of satan to God again.
These are members of the true church, who know the work of rege-
neration in the operation and feeling of it; and being come to be mem-
bers of the church of God, they are indeed members one of another in
the power of God, which was before the power of darkness was. So
they that come to the church that is in God and Christ, must come out
of the state that Adam was in in the fall, driven from God, to know
the state that he was in before he fell. But they that live in the state
that Adam was in in the fall, and cannot believe a possibility of coming
into the state he was in before he fell, come not to the church
which is in God: but are far from that, are not passed from death to
life, but are enemies to the cross of Christ, which is the power of God.
For they mind earthly things, and serve not Christ; nor love the power
which should bring them up to the state that Adam was in before he
fell, and crucify them to the state that man is in in the fall; that
through this power they might see to the beginning, the power that man
was in before the heavenly image, holiness and righteousness, was lost:
by which power they might come up to know the seed, Christ, which
brings out of the old things, and makes all things new; in which life
eternal is felt. For all the poorness, emptiness, and barrenness is in
the state that man is in in the fall, out of God’s power; by which power
he is made rich again, and in which power he hath strength again:
which power is the cross, in which the mystery of the fellowship stands;
and in which is the true glorying, which crucifies to all other gloryings.
And Friends, though ye may have been convinced, and have tasted of
the power, and felt the light, yet afterwards ye may feel a winter
storm, tempest, and hail, frost, and cold, and temptation in the wilder-
ness. Be patient and still in the power and in the light that doth
convince you, to keep your minds to God; in that be quiet, that ye may
come to the summer; that your flight be not in the winter. For if ye
sit still in the patience which overcomes in the power of God, there
will be no flying. The husbandman, after he hath sown his seed, is
patient. And ye, by the power being kept in the patience, will come
by the light to see through and feel over winter storms, and tempests,
and all the coldness, barrenness, and emptiness; and the same light and
power will go over the tempter’s head; which power and light was
before he was. So in the light standing still, ye will see your salva-
tion, ye will see the Lord’s strength, ye will feel the small rain, ye will
feel the fresh springs, your minds being kept low in the power and
light; for that which is out of the power lifts up. But in the power
and light ye will feel God, revealing his secrets, inspiring your minds,
and his gifts coming in unto you; through which your hearts will be
filled with God’s love, and praises to him that lives for evermore: for
in his light and power his blessing is received. So in that, the eternal
power of the Lord Jesus Christ preserve and keep you! And live every
one in the power of God, that ye may all come to be heirs of that, and
know that to be your portion; even the kingdom that hath no end, and
the endless life which the seed is heir of. So feel that set over all, which
hath the promise, and blessing of God for ever.’
G. F. (Works, Vol. 1, pp 310-312)

Comment by Rhonda Fuller on 3rdMo. 5, 2016 at 14:35

I appreciate the full letter. I look forward to reading George Fox as part of preparation for Meeting for Worship. Since I've become associated with NFF, I've acquired more of his writings. I'm going through the interior of his journal (which I had always neglected in favor of the first three, four, five chapters because I saw it as boring--how foolish of me) after having completed the later chapters at the end of 2015; and going through the sermons, plus the print out The Pearl Found in England. Sometimes my preparation takes an hour or more if I'm quickened by the Spirit. So, thank you again, Ellis. 

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