Who's Standing In the Gap?

Comment by Patricia Dallmann on 3rdMo. 23, 2015 at 18:44

It seems to me that Barclay would be suitable for presenting the people you refer to with a reasonable, scripture-related account of Quaker faith. Have you read him, Bill? Although he doesn't specifically use the term "second-coming," as far as I know, he refers to the experiential knowledge of God and Christ. Furthermore, he addresses himself to those areas where Quakers and other Christians were at odds. 

There's a problem with tying Christ's coming to the time of the writing of Revelation because it caters to and affirms the mistaken notion that signs and wonders are to be the verifying events of Christ's appearance. It simply wouldn't be the gospel that Quakers know and preach to tie Christ's appearance to some temporal event. The scriptures can't be read in that flat, worldly way. If anyone were to be convinced by the arguments you make, they would be not one whit more conversant with the gospel Quakers preached, because it is spirit and not intellectual proposition.

It is more important to preach/write the truth, even if many do not have ears to hear. The way has always been strait and the gate narrow. The voice has always cried in the wilderness. I am glad that there are others who keep the voice clear and the spirit heard. 

Comment by Allan Halton on 3rdMo. 23, 2015 at 23:23

Greetings, Bill.  I have had a lot on my plate and have not had opportunity to join this conversation, although I read your earlier posts a couple of weeks ago.  Today I caught up with the most recent posts.  Let me say first that I have learned much.  I appreciate the depth of your understanding as to George Fox and preterism. 

 

He would no doubt have asked the meaning of the word, and in fact, so did I when I first heard the word preterism a few years ago—this after having already come across the writings of George Fox as upon “great spoil a few years earlier.  Fox had precious “openings” (we would use the word “revelation”) on what many in our day term preterism—in the main, to use one of his most frequent statements, that “Christ our teacher is come.”

 

I have always wished I could ask him, if I had the opportunity, when this began to happen.  But since I cannot ask him, I will ask it here for you and others to consider.  I see you have brought up Revelation Ch. 1 in this regard.  Mention has also been made of Matthew 24 and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.

 

But let me ask this.  When Jesus said, “I will not leave you comfortless (orphans) I will come to you” (Jn. 14:18), when did this happen to those He was speaking to at that time?

Allan

 

Comment by Earlon William (Bill) Carsley on 3rdMo. 24, 2015 at 1:05

Pat,

I must respectfully disagree with you.  I have read Barclay's Apology, and it is good as far as it goes.  But a book written nearly 300 years ago can hardly be seen as the best possible apologetic for contemporary people. Barclay's arguments are incomplete at best, and I believe his work is woefully inadequate in terms of contemporary scholarship and accessibility for modern readers.

Regarding "signs", Christ Himself plainly said there would be certain signs in world events in His generation that would lead up to His "coming" (all of which were fulfilled as He predicted in the years leading up to AD 70).  Both the gospels of Matthew and Luke (please read with an open mind Matthew chapters 24-25 and Luke chapters 21-22) show that the issue of the coming destruction of the Temple (Matt. 24:1-3) and of the city of Jerusalem (Matt. 23:34-39; Luke 21:5-7, 20-24) were the main focus of Jesus' discussion of His "coming" in the synoptics.  It seems to me that if you're unwilling to entertain that fact (due to some perceived Quaker imperative), you are the one refusing to open your ears and your eyes!

I agree with you, Pat, that the important knowledge for true life and wisdom is in spirit and truth, not intellectual proposition.  But don't be so quick to assume that you and your tiny group alone have found the complete fullness of "the narrow way", while looking down on others who haven't had the same light and opportunities.  Do you realize how pharsaical your view of things sounds?  To keep the voice clear and the spirit heard, it seems you would build a wall of isolation so high that few would ever be able to see over it (or be afforded the opportunity to hear that "voice in the wilderness."  I'm sorry, but you are calling for an extreme sectarian isolation which can never lend itself to the world encompassing, universal vision of Fox and Benson.

Comment by Patricia Dallmann on 3rdMo. 24, 2015 at 1:43

If you wish to understand the faith of the Quakers, you will do well not to dismiss Barclay. For example, Bill, here is a passage that shows the timelessness of Christ's coming to those whose hearts are open to truth:

So then, as there was the outward visible body and temple of Jesus Christ, which took its origin from the virgin Mary, so there is also the Spiritual body of Christ, by and through which he, that was the "Word in the beginning with God," and was, and is GOD, did reveal himself to the sons of men in all ages, and were by men in all ages come to be made partakers of eternal life, and to have communion and fellowship with God and Christ. Of which body of Christ, and flesh and blood, if both Adam, and Seth, and Enoch,and Noah, and Abraham, and Moses, and David, and all the prophets and holy men of God had not eaten, they had not had life in them, nor could their inward man have been nourished. Now, as the outward body and temple was called Christ, so was also this spiritual body, no less properly, and long before that outward body was in being (13.II).

Your attempting to relegate Christ's coming to a particular time is not in accord with Quaker experience, faith, or theology. It's not a good fit with preterism, which is concerned with the timing of events and correlating these with Christ's prophetic office. You have taken the word "prophecy" that means something very different to a Quaker than it does to preterism. Only the word itself is the same: the meanings are different. For a Quaker, Christ as prophet is one who speaks from heaven to his people; it does not mean someone who foretells the future or where a lost cow is to be found! (Thanks to Benson for that moment of levity.)

You are mistaken about "our building a wall of isolation etc." Our devotion is to preaching the truth, as it has always been preached by those who have received the gospel. We will not preach another gospel so that it might be more accessible. We trust God to have made us human beings capable of knowing him and coming back into his image and likeness, able to hear his Word and to preach it. What hardness would one wrongfully assign to our Creator in claiming he'd made our regeneration too hard for us? No, we will not change what we have been given--this treasure in clay jars--to dance to the tune of some idea that has no truth. Look elsewhere if this doesn't suit you. 

Comment by Earlon William (Bill) Carsley on 3rdMo. 24, 2015 at 2:00

Hello Allan,

I'm so glad you finally had the opportunity to correspond.  I really did appreciate so very much your contributions to the discussion at Monday evening's telephone conference.  I'm also gratified to hear that, like me, you recognize (to some extent, at least) that George Fox's approach was at heart a preterist one. In regard to your question: the passage you quote is from John Chapter 14, admittedly one of the most complex chapters in the whole gospel.  I want to write a post on its significance at some point, but I'm not quite ready to tackle that project yet! 

I will just say for now that Jesus is identifying Himself with the Paraclete in a very mysterious way in John chapter 14.  I believe Jesus is saying that the Paraclete is another name for His own post-resurrection, post-ascension presence, and it's also  a name for the Holy Spirit.  We know the Holy Spirit came in fulness at Pentecost as a confirmation that Christ Himself had been seated in Kingdom authority at the right hand of God (Acts 2:32-36).  The gift of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost was, in one sense, the comforting presence Jesus had promised in John 14:18 (you might say that the Spirit at Pentecost was Jesus in proxy). 

However, the appearance to John, in Revelation chapters 1-3, was Jesus actually coming Himself (in His resurrected and ascended glory). This was also a spiritual presence, but distinct from that of the Holy Spirit.   Jesus  has been available to come to all of His people who open the door to Him ever since (both by proxy, in the form of the Holy Spirit, and in His own glorious Presence).  I don't think it is always clear to us, in our own spiritual experiences, which manifestation it is we're encountering, nor do I think it really matters.  George Fox seemed to use both types of manifestation interchangeably, as did Paul in the New Testament.  Paul actually had visionary encounters with the risen Christ, on the road to Damascus and at other times during his life, but I think he was a unique case until the coming at the time of John's Revelation. 

This is the best answer I can give you, in a nutshell, Allan.  The Lord bless you, my friend...

Bill

Comment by Earlon William (Bill) Carsley on 3rdMo. 24, 2015 at 2:23

Pat,

If, in time, I discover that your view is shared by all those at New Foundation Fellowship, I will most certainly seek out a different forum.  I welcome the honest views of all.  Being honest and frank with one another is part of what it means to be people of truth. And I would invite everyone reading these posts to give me feedback!  Please honestly tell me, everyone who reads this, if you would like me to leave this forum.  I'm only here because I believe God has given me something worth sharing, and I had believed that Benson's spiritual heirs would be the most open to what I have to say.  If I was wrong, please don't hesitate to say so plainly.  There will be no hard feelings, and I don't want to waste my time, or yours...

Comment by Allan Halton on 3rdMo. 24, 2015 at 3:03

Bill, I've just now entered this discussion, but from my perspective, I don't think you should be too ready to move on.  I might say, though, that I felt your response to Patricia Dallmann came across somewhat stern, and undeservedly so.  I didn't sense anything she said called for some of the things you said (or, at least, the way you said them).  Now she, in turn, has responded, or so it seems to me, in kind (by her ending suggestion).

On a forum like this we need to be gentle with one another, and respond to one another in a way that keeps hearts open.  (2 Tim. 2:24).

I will get back to you with a response to your comment about the Paraclete as soon as I am able.

 

Comment by Earlon William (Bill) Carsley on 3rdMo. 24, 2015 at 10:46

Thank you for your sincere observation, Allan.  I, of all people, do not wish to be needlessly harsh with anyone.  I seek to live in the spirit of Jesus.  If you were to read through my series of posts carefully you would sense this I think.  You would also see that the perspective and approach Pat attributes to me is not at all what I am saying.  It is a straw man representation of me, easy to tear down.  But it is the attitude of easy dismissal of others, and a Quietist lack of concern that the wandering sheep should be reached, which deeply troubles me.  This is the unwillingness and failure to "stand in the gap" which I referred to in my last post.  I have no personal animosity or dislike toward Pat, but I do think that she (and others who manifest a similar spirit) should be reminded to look at themselves in the mirror now and then.  I leave it to the judgment of God, and to the discernment of the NFF community, to decide if my comments were unwarranted, or too harsh.  If they were, I apologize...

Comment by Allan Halton on 3rdMo. 24, 2015 at 18:40

Bill, this is further to my comment about the Paraclete. 

 

I have not been able to find in Fox’s writings any significant reference to the coming of the Paraclete as being what Jesus said it is to be—a coming of Himself to abide in His disciples.   This is the major theme of John Chapters 14-17.

 

“I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you” (Jn. 14:18).

 

“Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you” (Jn. 14:28).

 

When did this happen?  It happened on the Day of Pentecost as recorded in Acts Ch. 2. 

 

It is only in this sense that it can be said that “Christ our teacher is come.”  He is yet on the throne of Heaven, yet is here indwelling those who have received His Spirit, as many passages in the New Testament show:

 

“If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His.  And if Christ be in you...” (Rom. 8:9,10). 

 

“...That He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might by His Spirit in the inner man, That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith...” (Eph. 3:16,17).

 

This—by the Holy Spirit—is the only way it can be said that Christ dwells in His saints.  Let me put that the other way around.  When the Holy Spirit dwells in someone, it is Christ who dwells in that one.  Scripture backs this up in many places.

 

This is a “coming” of Christ that vast swaths of Christendom have entirely overlooked, and, in my opinion, the preterists have overlooked as well.

 

But this “coming” is not referred to as the parousia by the New Covenant writers, as the following list of the 24 verses where the word is used shows.  These writers had received the Holy Spirit, yet still anticipated the parousia (Strongs G3952), which in 1 Thes. 4:15 Paul puts at the time of the resurrection of “the dead in Christ.”

 

[Note: I have put the list in a separate comment (which follows this one) since the list made this post too large to be received.]

 

As to what John saw in Revelation Ch. 1, personally I find it very difficult to see this as “distinct from the Holy Spirit,” which is the way you expressed it.  It is the very work of the Holy Spirit in the earth to reveal and glorify ascended Christ.  Jesus says (again in John14), “He shall testify of me” (Jn. 15:26).  “He shall glorify me” (Jn. 16:14).  Where does He do this?  In the church.  And this is what I see happening in Revelation Ch. One.

 

Revelation 1:12-16 is a description of the Lord Jesus Christ in the midst of the seven lampstands, the seven churches, which, because of the symbolic use of the number seven (used to express fullness, completeness) can be understood as the one church universal.  Here, then, is Christ the head of the church in “the church which is His body, the fullness of Him that filleth all in all” (Eph. 1:22,23).  In fact His voice is “as the sound of many waters,” that is, “a multitude” (Ezek. 1:24, Dan. 10:6).  Some have also pointed out that the word for “paps” or “breasts” in verse 13 is the Greek “mastos,” which is always used in reference to a woman.  So here is a prophetic vision of Christ in union with His bride the church, for John in Rev. 1:3 calls this book “a prophecy.”  This union is effected by the Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, who in the members of the body of Christ is one with Christ on the throne of Heaven.  It is accomplished by each one being baptized into Christ—which is what baptism in the Holy Spirit is all about (Rom. 6:3,4).  It began at Pentecost, and must be experienced individually by every person who believes in Jesus Christ in order for them to be one with Him, according to His promise in sending the Paraclete.  “At that day [the day of the sending of the Paraclete] ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you” (Jn. 14:20).  It is by the Paraclete that those who believe in Jesus Christ are made as one with the Son of God as He is with the Father. 

 

As to Matthew 24, I have never felt satisfied to accept that the destruction of the temple in 70 AD fulfilled all that Jesus prophesied in this chapter, or in Mark’s and Luke’s record of the same prophecy.  Full preterists hang a lot of weight on that.  But if “the Son of man coming on the clouds of Heaven in power and great glory” was fulfilled in AD 70, it is the greatest letdown that has ever taken place in the universe.  That was the second coming?  It is astonishing that there is no historical record of it, nor any mention of it in the Scriptures.  (Are you aware that there is strong “scholarship” that puts the date of The Revelation at 97 AD or thereabouts?)

 

I certainly see that much of what Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24 was fulfilled in 70 AD.  But a careful reading of that passage shows there is yet much awaiting fulfillment.  I am inclined to view Jesus’ words as one would view the circles of a pool into which a rock has been thrown.  Yes, it caused that first circle to form.  But what’s this?  Here’s another circle being formed, an enlarging that is taking place, yet caused by that same rock. 

 

It is already in motion.  We are certainly in the New Covenant age, and the river of life is even now flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the street of the City of God to which we have already come (Heb. Ch. 12).  The kingdom of God is already in the earth and growing—first the blade, then the ear, after that the full corn in the ear.  These are things Fox saw, and taught.

 

But it began at Pentecost, not in 70 AD.  It was the sending of the Spirit on the day of Pentecost that enabled those disciples to experience vital and intimate communion and fellowship with the risen and ascended Christ.  Christ continues to send Him even today to those who ask for him (Lk. 11:13), and when He is come, He convicts of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment no less effectively than Jesus did when He was here in the flesh.  In Him the Son of God reveals Himself as the Apostle of our confession, the prophet that was to come, the Evangelist who proclaims the everlasting Gospel, the Shepherd who leads His lambs to everlasting springs of water, the Teacher who Himself teaches His disciples, the King who reigns in them, the High Priest who is faithful to minister to them the New Covenant...

 

...Till the New Covenant is completely fulfilled, and His work is done, and the bride is “without spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing,” and the church which is His body has grown to a perfect Man, “to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ,” and the glory of the Lord is revealed as fully as in that one Man Jesus two thousand some years ago, in fact more fully, for this church, this body, this bride, this city, is the fullness of Him that filleth all in all.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

Comment by Allan Halton on 3rdMo. 24, 2015 at 18:43

Here is a list of the 24 verses in the New Testament in which the word "parousia" is used.  The Strong's number is G3952.

Mat_24:3  And^G1161 as he^G846 sat^G2521 upon^G1909 the^G3588 mount^G3735 of Olives,^G1636 the^G3588 disciples^G3101 came^G4334 unto him^G846 privately,^{G2596 G2398} saying,^G3004 Tell^G2036 us,^G2254 when^G4219 shall these things^G5023 be?^G2071 and^G2532 what^G5101 shall be the^G3588 sign^G4592 of thy^G4674 coming,^G3952 and^G2532 of the^G3588 end^G4930 of the^G3588 world?^G165

Mat_24:27  For^G1063 as^G5618 the^G3588 lightning^G796 cometh^G1831 out of^G575 the east,^G395 and^G2532 shineth^G5316 even unto^G2193 the west;^G1424 so^G3779 shall also^G2532 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of the^G3588 Son^G5207 of man^G444 be.^G2071

Mat_24:37  But^G1161 as^G5618 the^G3588 days^G2250 of Noe^G3575 were, so^G3779 shall also^G2532 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of the^G3588 Son^G5207 of man^G444 be.^G2071

Mat_24:39  And^G2532 knew^G1097 not^G3756 until^G2193 the^G3588 flood^G2627 came,^G2064 and^G2532 took them all away;^{G142 G537} so^G3779 shall also^G2532 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of the^G3588 Son^G5207 of man^G444 be.^G2071

1Co_15:23  But^G1161 every man^G1538 in^G1722 his own^G2398 order:^G5001 Christ^G5547 the firstfruits;^G536 afterward^G1899 they^G3588 that are Christ's^G5547 at^G1722 his^G848 coming.^G3952

1Co_16:17  ^(G1161) I am glad^G5463 of^G1909 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of Stephanas^G4734 and^G2532 Fortunatus^G5415 and^G2532 Achaicus:^G883 for^G3754 that which was lacking^G5303 on your part^G5216 they^G3778 have supplied.^G378

2Co_7:6  Nevertheless^G235 God,^G2316 that comforteth^G3870 those that are cast down,^G5011 comforted^G3870 us^G2248 by^G1722 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of Titus;^G5103

2Co_7:7  And^G1161 not^G3756 by^G1722 his^G846 coming^G3952 only,^G3440 but^{G235 (G2532)} by^G1722 the^G3588 consolation^G3874 wherewith^G3739 he was comforted^G3870 in^G1909 you,^G5213 when he told^G312 us^G2254 your^G5216 earnest desire,^G1972 your^G5216 mourning,^G3602 your^G5216 fervent mind^G2205 toward^G5228 me;^G1700 so that^G5620 I^G3165 rejoiced^G5463 the more.^G3123

2Co_10:10  For^G3754 his letters,^{G1992 (G3303)} say^G5346 they, are weighty^G926 and^G2532 powerful;^G2478 but^G1161 his bodily^G4983 presence^G3952 is weak,^G772 and^G2532 his speech^G3056 contemptible.^G1848

Php_1:26  That^G2443 your^G5216 rejoicing^G2745 may be more abundant^G4052 in^G1722 Jesus^G2424 Christ^G5547 for^G1722 me^G1698 by^G1223 my^G1699 coming^G3952 to^G4314 you^G5209 again.^G3825

Php_2:12  Wherefore,^G5620 my^G3450 beloved,^G27 as^G2531 ye have always^G3842 obeyed,^G5219 not^G3361 as^G5613 in^G1722 my^G3450 presence^G3952 only,^G3440 but^G235 now^G3568 much^G4183 more^G3123 in^G1722 my^G3450 absence,^G666 work out^G2716 your own^G1438 salvation^G4991 with^G3326 fear^G5401 and^G2532 trembling.^G5156

1Th_2:19  For^G1063 what^G5101 is our^G2257 hope,^G1680 or^G2228 joy,^G5479 or^G2228 crown^G4735 of rejoicing?^G2746 Are^(G2228) not^G3780 even^G2532 ye^G5210 in the presence^G1715 of our^G2257 Lord^G2962 Jesus^G2424 Christ^G5547 at^G1722 his^G846 coming?^G3952

1Th_3:13  To the end he may stablish^G4741 your^G5216 hearts^G2588 unblameable^G273 in^G1722 holiness^G42 before^G1715 God,^G2316 even^G2532 our^G2257 Father,^G3962 at^G1722 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of our^G2257 Lord^G2962 Jesus^G2424 Christ^G5547 with^G3326 all^G3956 his^G846 saints.^G40

1Th_4:15  For^G1063 this^G5124 we say^G3004 unto you^G5213 by^G1722 the word^G3056 of the Lord,^G2962 that^G3754 we^G2249 which are alive^G2198 and remain^G4035 unto^G1519 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of the^G3588 Lord^G2962 shall not^G3364 prevent^G5348 them which are asleep.^G2837

1Th_5:23  And^G1161 the^G3588 very^G846 God^G2316 of peace^G1515 sanctify^G37 you^G5209 wholly;^G3651 and^G2532 I pray God your^G5216 whole^G3648 spirit^G4151 and^G2532 soul^G5590 and^G2532 body^G4983 be preserved^G5083 blameless^G274 unto^G1722 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of our^G2257 Lord^G2962 Jesus^G2424 Christ.^G5547

2Th_2:1  Now^G1161 we beseech^G2065 you,^G5209 brethren,^G80 by^G5228 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of our^G2257 Lord^G2962 Jesus^G2424 Christ,^G5547 and^G2532 by our^G2257 gathering together^G1997 unto^G1909 him,^G846

2Th_2:8  And^G2532 then^G5119 shall that Wicked^G459 be revealed,^G601 whom^G3739 the^G3588 Lord^G2962 shall consume^G355 with the^G3588 spirit^G4151 of his^G848 mouth,^G4750 and^G2532 shall destroy^G2673 with the^G3588 brightness^G2015 of his^G848 coming:^G3952

2Th_2:9  Even him, whose^G3739 coming^G3952 is^G2076 after^G2596 the working^G1753 of Satan^G4567 with^G1722 all^G3956 power^G1411 and^G2532 signs^G4592 and^G2532 lying^G5579 wonders,^G5059

Jas_5:7  Be patient^G3114 therefore,^G3767 brethren,^G80 unto^G2193 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of the^G3588 Lord.^G2962 Behold,^G2400 the^G3588 husbandman^G1092 waiteth for^G1551 the^G3588 precious^G5093 fruit^G2590 of the^G3588 earth,^G1093 and^G2532 hath long patience^G3114 for^G1909 it,^G846 until^{G2193 G302} he receive^G2983 the early^G4406 and^G2532 latter^G3797 rain.^G5205

Jas_5:8  Be ye also patient;^{G3114 G5210 G2532} stablish^G4741 your^G5216 hearts:^G2588 for^G3754 the^G3588 coming^G3952 of the^G3588 Lord^G2962 draweth nigh.^G1448

2Pe_1:16  For^G1063 we have not^G3756 followed^G1811 cunningly devised^G4679 fables,^G3454 when we made known^G1107 unto you^G5213 the^G3588 power^G1411 and^G2532 coming^G3952 of our^G2257 Lord^G2962 Jesus^G2424 Christ,^G5547 but^G235 were^G1096 eyewitnesses^G2030 of his^G1565 majesty.^G3168

2Pe_3:4  And^G2532 saying,^G3004 Where^G4226 is^G2076 the^G3588 promise^G1860 of his^G846 coming?^G3952 for^G1063 since^{G575 G3739} the^G3588 fathers^G3962 fell asleep,^G2837 all things^G3956 continue^G1265 as^G3779 they were from^G575 the beginning^G746 of the creation.^G2937

2Pe_3:12  Looking for^G4328 and^G2532 hasting^G4692 unto the^G3588 coming^G3952 of the^G3588 day^G2250 of God,^G2316 wherein^{G1223 G3739} the heavens^G3772 being on fire^G4448 shall be dissolved,^G3089 and^G2532 the elements^G4747 shall melt^G5080 with fervent heat?^G2741

1Jn_2:28  And^G2532 now,^G3568 little children,^G5040 abide^G3306 in^G1722 him;^G846 that,^G2443 when^G3752 he shall appear,^G5319 we may have^G2192 confidence,^G3954 and^G2532 not^G3361 be ashamed^G153 before^G575 him^G846 at^G1722 his^G848 coming.^G3952

 

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