Comments - A Review of Derek's Guiton's Book: A Man that Looks on Glass: Standing up for God - New Foundation Fellowship2024-03-29T08:04:58Zhttp://nffquaker.org/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=6286598%3ABlogPost%3A35153&xn_auth=noBrenda, I don't think that yo…tag:nffquaker.org,2018-02-25:6286598:Comment:350502018-02-25T10:59:11.784ZAllistair Lomaxhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/1q0exj1yh6e79
<p>Brenda, I don't think that you really understand Barclay's intent and thinking in using those words.</p>
<p>I do not believe that Early Friends had a doctrine that people had the Light then lost it.</p>
<p>I am clear that Early Friends believed that a persons spirit could cease to be enlightened by God's Spirit; but this is not the same as 'losing the Light'.</p>
<p>In 'To All that would know the Way to the Kingdom'; George Fox clearly states:</p>
<p>"True it is, darkness cannot comprehend…</p>
<p>Brenda, I don't think that you really understand Barclay's intent and thinking in using those words.</p>
<p>I do not believe that Early Friends had a doctrine that people had the Light then lost it.</p>
<p>I am clear that Early Friends believed that a persons spirit could cease to be enlightened by God's Spirit; but this is not the same as 'losing the Light'.</p>
<p>In 'To All that would know the Way to the Kingdom'; George Fox clearly states:</p>
<p>"True it is, darkness cannot comprehend this Light, but the Light makes manifest darkness. And this is the condemnation of the world - the Light. Thou that hates this Light, <em><strong>thou hast it.</strong></em> "</p>
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<p>I would like now to draw under this discussion as it no longer relevant to my original post. So could I please ask that no further comments are made.<br/> </p> On re-reading Barclay's Apolo…tag:nffquaker.org,2018-02-24:6286598:Comment:353402018-02-24T10:05:25.544ZBrenda Redshawhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/BrendaRedshaw
<p>On re-reading Barclay's <em>Apology</em>, he says clearly that the light enlighhtens men ALL IN A DAY: the Day of the Lord, when all men, in contrast with Calvinisms limited atonement, are given the chance to accept the judgement of God, and if they do not turn from this light given on that day, will lead them to salvation.</p>
<p>This is not how the doctrine is being understood today, that the eQuakers taught that all men have the light and is clearly contradicted by Barclay. I was vey…</p>
<p>On re-reading Barclay's <em>Apology</em>, he says clearly that the light enlighhtens men ALL IN A DAY: the Day of the Lord, when all men, in contrast with Calvinisms limited atonement, are given the chance to accept the judgement of God, and if they do not turn from this light given on that day, will lead them to salvation.</p>
<p>This is not how the doctrine is being understood today, that the eQuakers taught that all men have the light and is clearly contradicted by Barclay. I was vey pleased to find this.</p>
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<p> THE FIFTH PROPOSITION</p>
<blockquote>GOD, out of his infinite love, who delighteth not in the death of a sinner, but that all should live and be <a name="t.a" id="t.a"></a>saved,<sup><a href="http://www.qhpress.org/texts/barclay/apology/props5-6.html#n.a">a</a></sup> hath so loved the world, that he hath given his only Son a Light, that whosoever believeth in him shall be saved (John 3:16), "who enlighteneth EVERY man that cometh into the world" (John 1:9), and "maketh manifest all things that are reprovable" (Eph. 5:13), and teacheth all temperance, righteousness, and godliness; and <strong>this Light enlighteneth the hearts of all IN A DAY </strong>in order to salvation; and this is it which reproves the sin of all individuals, and would work out the salvation of all, if not resisted. Nor is it less universal than the seed of sin, being the purchase of his death, "who tasted death for every man: for as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive" (1 Cor. 15:22).</blockquote>
<blockquote><em>Chrysostom on John 1: "If he enlightens every man coming into the world, how comes it that so many men remain without light? For all do not so much as acknowledge Christ. How then doth he enlighten every man? He illuminates indeed so far as in him is; but if any of their own accord, closing the eyes of their mind, will not direct their eyes unto the beams of this Light, the cause that they remain in darkness is not from the nature of the Light, but through their own malignity, who willingly have rendered themselves unworthy of so great a gift. But why believed they not? Because they would not: Christ did his part."</em></blockquote> Patricia wrote: One must also…tag:nffquaker.org,2018-02-22:6286598:Comment:353392018-02-22T10:54:32.067ZBrenda Redshawhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/BrendaRedshaw
<div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Patricia wrote: <em>One must also interpret Scriptures under this authority, and not as Barclay admonishes against in his first proposition, with "many and various opinions of God and religion, being so much mixed with the guessings and uncertain judgments" (QHP, 20-21).</em></p>
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<p>Indeed, and my understanding is not carnal as if was it would agree with the many and various opinions common in the church, which it does not. The church in general…</p>
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<div class="xg_user_generated"><p>Patricia wrote: <em>One must also interpret Scriptures under this authority, and not as Barclay admonishes against in his first proposition, with "many and various opinions of God and religion, being so much mixed with the guessings and uncertain judgments" (QHP, 20-21).</em></p>
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<p>Indeed, and my understanding is not carnal as if was it would agree with the many and various opinions common in the church, which it does not. The church in general believes in original sin and I do not. There are so many things I agree with that the eQuakers taught but in a few things I differ, and their understanding of who has the light. I am not using carnal men's thought but using my own revelation and backing it up with scripture, in the light of my revelation.</p>
<p>No man has ever been 100% correct as God does not give 100% revelation to any one man, and the times we live in tends to put our focus on what the incorrect currrent trends are which will influence our interpretations. I am sure that my own interpretations are affected this way and this is why it is so important to also use the writings from saints in the past to check our understanding. It is also wise not to limit our readings to one point in history or to one denomination to make sure we are balanced.</p>
<p>As often happens, men use only a few writers and do not read widely and reject light from elsewhere because it is not 'pure'.</p>
<p><em><span>Where in Scriptures does it say that men "lose the light." Rather, it says that the light shines in the darkness and the darkness does not overcome it. The light continues to shine within men's darkness; it is not "lost." Men are "lost" when they prefer darkness, but the light is not lost; it continues to shine whether men prefer it or not, for the light is eternal and cannot be overcome by darkness. </span></em></p>
<p>Let scripture correct you.</p>
<p><strong>Job 12:24 He taketh away the heart of the chief of the people of the earth and causeth them to wander in the wilderness where there is no way. They grope in the dark without light and maketh them to stager like a drunken man.</strong></p>
<p>"If the birth of light energised the Bible's stories of origin, the extinguishing of light is one of the notable archetypes in the Bible's apocalyptic visions of the end. In the OT visions, we read that 'the stars of the heavens.....will not give their light; the sun will be dark at it's rising' Is 13.10 and that he heavens will have no light Jer 4:23. The NT concurs 'The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give it's light and the stars will fall from heaven' Matt 24:29. 'The light of a lamp shall shine in thee no more' Rev 18:23" <em>Dictionary of Biblical Imagery, Light p510 IVP.</em></p>
<p>If you are not interpreting Revelation in the symbolic way of the eQuakers but in the mistaken physical Apocalyptic understanding of the church in general, there can be no agreement between us.</p>
<p>The subject is important in these days because of the infiltration of eastern philosophies and the idea that all ways lead to God, and every man has his own truth. These things were not an issue in the eQuakers time and men could discerne the truth on this matter more easily.</p>
<p><span id="en-KJV-13153" class="text Job-12-24"> </span></p>
<p><span id="en-KJV-13154" class="text Job-12-25"> </span></p>
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</div> Brenda, not only must "immedi…tag:nffquaker.org,2018-02-21:6286598:Comment:351662018-02-21T12:50:18.668ZPatricia Dallmannhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/PatriciaDallmann
<p>Brenda, not only must "immediate direct revelation [be an] authority for the believer," one must also interpret Scriptures under this authority, and not as Barclay admonishes against in his first proposition, with "many and various opinions of God and religion, being so much mixed with the guessings and uncertain judgments" (QHP, 20-21). You've guessed and judged wrongly in both chapters of Romans 1 and 7, making your interpretation of them bend to fit your preconception regarding Fox's…</p>
<p>Brenda, not only must "immediate direct revelation [be an] authority for the believer," one must also interpret Scriptures under this authority, and not as Barclay admonishes against in his first proposition, with "many and various opinions of God and religion, being so much mixed with the guessings and uncertain judgments" (QHP, 20-21). You've guessed and judged wrongly in both chapters of Romans 1 and 7, making your interpretation of them bend to fit your preconception regarding Fox's having come into a second blessing, a notion that fits your theology but is found no where among early Quakers, nor in Scripture. </p>
<p>And now you're claiming that early Friends were "<span>a bit off regarding the fact that men lose the light when they sin and it must come to them again." Where in Scriptures does it say that men "lose the light." Rather, it says that the light shines in the darkness and the darkness does not overcome it. The light continues to shine within men's darkness; it is not "lost." Men are "lost" when they prefer darkness, but the light is not lost; it continues to shine whether men prefer it or not, for the light is eternal and cannot be overcome by darkness. </span></p>
<p><span>You will have a very difficult time finding your way back to a clean approach to Scriptures because you are so invested in your carnal apprehension:</span></p>
<p><span>...he that errs in the entrance is not so easily reduced again into the right way; he that misseth his road from the beginning of his journey, and is deceived in his first marks, at his first setting forth, the greater his mistake is, the more difficult will be his entrance into the right way (19). </span></p>
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<p></p> No Ellis I do not begin there…tag:nffquaker.org,2018-02-21:6286598:Comment:349612018-02-21T08:34:00.179ZBrenda Redshawhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/BrendaRedshaw
<p>No Ellis I do not begin there because I agree in the immediate direct revelation as authority for the believer and have said so in previous conversations. </p>
<p>When Fox emphasised the light that lightens every man so much he was refuting Calvinism which was very strong at that time, and who said/say that only certain men will be given light and the rest will remain in darkness. And this is indeed a firm foundation to build on.</p>
<p>But even though most of the revelation was from God, I…</p>
<p>No Ellis I do not begin there because I agree in the immediate direct revelation as authority for the believer and have said so in previous conversations. </p>
<p>When Fox emphasised the light that lightens every man so much he was refuting Calvinism which was very strong at that time, and who said/say that only certain men will be given light and the rest will remain in darkness. And this is indeed a firm foundation to build on.</p>
<p>But even though most of the revelation was from God, I do not think all of it was and they were a bit off regarding the fact that men lose the light when they sin and it must come to them again.</p>
<p>Ellis, scripture is our safeguard but not the source of revelation. It is secondary. However everything that is revealed to us by God must be found in scripture and the eQuakers were very strong on this and knew scripture back to front. It is unsafe for it not to be so. Do you believe in the devil Ellis?</p>
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<p></p> You will never understand Fox…tag:nffquaker.org,2018-02-21:6286598:Comment:353372018-02-21T03:00:19.596ZEllis Heinhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/EllisHein
<p>You will never understand Fox as long as you come at this backwards. Fox began with revelation “without the help of any man, book, or writing.” Later the Lord showed him the agreement between revelation and scripture. Fox preached what the Lord taught him as you may read in his statement of commission and sending forth. Christ himself, not scripture, was their foundation. “And if there was no scripture for our men and women's meetings, Christ is sufficient, who restores man and woman up into…</p>
<p>You will never understand Fox as long as you come at this backwards. Fox began with revelation “without the help of any man, book, or writing.” Later the Lord showed him the agreement between revelation and scripture. Fox preached what the Lord taught him as you may read in his statement of commission and sending forth. Christ himself, not scripture, was their foundation. “And if there was no scripture for our men and women's meetings, Christ is sufficient, who restores man and woman up into the image of God, to be helps-meet in the righteousness and holiness, as they were in before they fell. So he is our rock and foundation to build upon.” (Vol. VIII, p. 115) You begin with the demand that there be at least two passages of scripture according to your understanding before you will accept something as valid. On this basis, you hold Fox’s gospel to be wrong, mistaken, or built on flimsy undergirding. Thus you have closed the door to understanding what Fox and the early Quakers were about.</p> Thank you Ellis that was help…tag:nffquaker.org,2018-02-20:6286598:Comment:350492018-02-20T10:50:16.122ZBrenda Redshawhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/BrendaRedshaw
<p>Thank you Ellis that was helpful.</p>
<p>It seems that the eQuakers, were making a doctrine out of one verse, which of itself is unclear as to when men become enlightened. It could be at birth, when man is innocent as was Adam before he fell or it could be when each and every man is given the chance of turning to the light which is the Day of the Lord in my understanding.</p>
<p>I have spoken to unbelievers many times and they say that they did consider Christianity or had a spiritual…</p>
<p>Thank you Ellis that was helpful.</p>
<p>It seems that the eQuakers, were making a doctrine out of one verse, which of itself is unclear as to when men become enlightened. It could be at birth, when man is innocent as was Adam before he fell or it could be when each and every man is given the chance of turning to the light which is the Day of the Lord in my understanding.</p>
<p>I have spoken to unbelievers many times and they say that they did consider Christianity or had a spiritual expereince at one point in their lives but decided to reject it often because of the cruelty and suffering of the innocent in this world that is to say that Satan got in and they listened to him.</p>
<p>No doctrine can be made from one verse and certainly not one which has more than one possible interpretations.</p>
<p>Their interpretation of Romans 1 which they used to back up that one verse is a misenterpretation I believe for the reasons I have previously stated. Paul cannot be speaking of those who have never come to Christ and who have been in the dark since a time in their lives when they cannot remember their fall into sin. This is the reason that God gives them, all men a second chance when He brings the light to bear upon them and they can choose again.</p>
<p>If they accept the light then it will bring about their eventual salvation if they do not extinguish it and that means they will come up like Fox through the flaming sword and have their sin nature burned out of them, the sin nature they aquired, the nature of their father satan when they fell.</p>
<p>I do not find anywhere in scripture to back up the idea that the Holy Spirit can dwell where there is sin. That idea is from apostate Christianity. To say that here is a 'seed' is not proven in scripture. The seed is received when men accept the light.</p>
<p></p> Vol. VII p.27-29 To all my de…tag:nffquaker.org,2018-02-20:6286598:Comment:353362018-02-20T00:01:36.776ZEllis Heinhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/EllisHein
<p>Vol. VII<br></br> p.27-29<br></br> To all my dear brethren, whom the God of power hath enlightened with his eternal light, and discovered unto you his way of truth, and brought you out of the dark ways, wherein ye have walked; which dark ways all the world walk in But where the pure light of God is witnessed, it guides to himself. The light is but one, which leads out of darkness and the dark world, into the world which is without end. Therefore all Friends and brethren in the eternal truth of God,…</p>
<p>Vol. VII<br/> p.27-29<br/> To all my dear brethren, whom the God of power hath enlightened with his eternal light, and discovered unto you his way of truth, and brought you out of the dark ways, wherein ye have walked; which dark ways all the world walk in But where the pure light of God is witnessed, it guides to himself. The light is but one, which leads out of darkness and the dark world, into the world which is without end. Therefore all Friends and brethren in the eternal truth of God, walk in it up to God, and be not sayers only, nor backsliders; for the backslider is a sayer, and not a doer, and there ariseth ambition, pride and presumption out of that nature. But dwell in the pure light, which God hath made manifest to you in your understanding, and turn your minds to him, and walk as children of the light, and of the day, and be not drunken in any thing, nor run to extremes in any thing; but be moderate and patient. Wait for the presence of the great God, and our Lord and saviour Jesus Christ; and be not so childish as to be tossed with men's words without life. And run not out after others' liberties, which they have got in their notions; for thou that dost so, wilt not abide in the truth; and so thou mayst come to be shaken, and shake others, who look at words. But wait every one in particular, (in the measure that God hath given you,) upon God, in the fear of God, then your hearts will be kept clean; and this is the sure way. And wait all to have the son made manifest in you, and the son alone to set you free in yourselves in particular; and all that are made free by the son, are one. But the first nature, that would have liberty, must go into captivity; which they that live in their carnal reasoning, seek freedom for. But here is man deceived in his first birth.</p>
<p>But ye all, in whom the immortal seed is brought to light, who are raised up to sit in heavenly places with Christ Jesus, and are become children of the day, walk as children of the day, and as children of the light, and let your light so shine before men, that they may glorify your Father, which is in heaven.' All loving the light, ye love the one thing, which gathers your hearts together to the fountain of light and life; and walking in it, ye have unity one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth you from all sin.' The knowledge of the letter, which you formerly got into your notions and comprehensions, the dark mind gave dark meanings to it, and so kept you in the broad way; but now wait all to have the same spirit manifested in your understandings, which was in them who gave forth the scriptures, who were come out of the broad way, holy men of God, who had escaped the pollutions of the world. And if every particular of you know not a principle within, which is of God, to guide you to wait upon God, ye are still in your own knowledge, which is brutish and sensual. But waiting all upon God in that which is of God, ye are kept open to receive the teachings of God. And the pure wisdom and knowledge is that, which comes from above, which is to know God, and Jesus Christ, the way, which is hidden from the world; and to walk out of your own ways, and out of your own thoughts. And dwelling in that which is pure, up to God, it commands your own reason to keep silent, and to cast your own thoughts out: and dwelling in that which is pure, it discovereth all this. So dwelling in the spirit, it keepeth all your hearts to God. To whom be all praise, honour, and glory for ever!</p> This comment and the next con…tag:nffquaker.org,2018-02-20:6286598:Comment:351652018-02-20T00:00:15.452ZEllis Heinhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/EllisHein
<p>This comment and the next contain two passages from Fox that will help you understand the passages from John and what Fox meant by the immortal seed.</p>
<p>Vol. III<br></br> p.261-262<br></br> P. He saith, Christ doth not give to every man the light that leadeth to the Father, and there is not in every man that redeeming light, which leadeth to the Father. And it is false to say, the light which John speaks of, is a salvation light;' he saith, light in every than is but the candle light of natural…</p>
<p>This comment and the next contain two passages from Fox that will help you understand the passages from John and what Fox meant by the immortal seed.</p>
<p>Vol. III<br/> p.261-262<br/> P. He saith, Christ doth not give to every man the light that leadeth to the Father, and there is not in every man that redeeming light, which leadeth to the Father. And it is false to say, the light which John speaks of, is a salvation light;' he saith, light in every than is but the candle light of natural understanding,' page 56. And 'the light which every man hath, is a low common benefit, and no drop of this immortal seed,' pages 57, 58. Nor is the light which every man hath, his mediation.' And I call the light which every man hath, natural,' page 59. And the light which every man hath, teacheth nothing of the way, truth, and life of Jesus Christ,' page 60. And the light which is in every man is opposite to scriptures,' page 61. This is the light which is in every man's conscience, which is but natural. And the apostle saith he warneth every man, and teacheth every man, that he might present them perfect in Christ Jesus.' But he saith, 'The apostle did not warn every man: he did not level the saints' light, with every man's,' page 62. ' It is not meant that every man is enlightened, but the church.' See page 63.</p>
<p>A. I am the light of the world,' that doth enlighten every man that cometh into the world, saith Christ the life. So the light which every man that cometh into the world is enlightened with, will let them see the life which it cometh from, will let them see their salvation, Christ Jesus, will let them see their mediator, will let them see the truth, for the light is truth, which cometh from Christ the truth. And the light is Christ, the way, the truth, the life, that enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world. In him was life, and the life was the light of men,' in him by whom the world was made, which light was before any natural lights were; the sun, moon and stars are natural lights, and these were made by Christ the light, who doth enlighten every man, &c. Men having a light from him by whom the world was made, by whom all things were created, who was before any thing was created, this lets them see before any created light, or natural light; this gives every one the knowledge of life; lets every one see the salvation to the ends of the earth; and lets every one see the covenant of God.</p>
<p>They that love it and believe in it, come to the life Christ, him from whom the light cometh. The light is of the immortal seed, of Christ Jesus, one with the saints' light; the saints believe in that the<br/> world hates, and receive that which the world hates; so it is the world's condemnation: it is the condemnation of them that hate it. And so was he promised a covenant to the Gentiles, as well as to the Jews, and so doth enlighten every man that cometh into the world, according to John's testimony to the priests and Levites who came from Jerusalem to examine him. So the priests and professors now examine us in this age respecting the light which the Quakers are witnesses of, and bear testimony to,which Paul warned every man, and taught every man, that he might present them perfect in Christ the light. So the light is one with the saints' light, that condemns the unbelievers. And the light every man that cometh into the world is enlightened with, that through it he might believe; and who believe in it, and receive it, have the light of life, and they become the sons of God; and who hate it, it is their condemnation: and they are against scriptures, but the light is not against scriptures, but owns them. And so the light is not so low as ye esteem it, for it was before any thing was made or created... And the light in the converted shines out of darkness in their hearts, and gives them the light of the knowledge of the glory of God, &c. And the light in the unconverted shines in the darkness, and the darkness comprehends it not.</p> Please show the scriptures th…tag:nffquaker.org,2018-02-19:6286598:Comment:349602018-02-19T16:32:07.363ZBrenda Redshawhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/BrendaRedshaw
<p>Please show the scriptures that say that all men have the 'seed' within them, the seed of Christ, and explain what Fox meant by it thank you.</p>
<p>Please show the scriptures that say that all men have the 'seed' within them, the seed of Christ, and explain what Fox meant by it thank you.</p>