Comments - Fox References regarding the Lord's Supper - New Foundation Fellowship2024-03-28T10:46:17Zhttp://nffquaker.org/profiles/comment/feed?attachedTo=6286598%3ABlogPost%3A24074&xn_auth=noThanks, Becky. A good remind…tag:nffquaker.org,2015-04-04:6286598:Comment:242852015-04-04T00:37:49.807ZAllan Haltonhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/AllanHalton
<p>Thanks, Becky. A good reminder.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Ellis, yes, that is right, we have One who teaches us to please our Father, and this is why we earnestly want to know what our Teacher is saying to us. Then it becomes a matter of conscience to do what we feel is well pleasing in His sight, and hopefully keep our hearts open to the admission of further light.</p>
<p>Thanks, Becky. A good reminder.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Ellis, yes, that is right, we have One who teaches us to please our Father, and this is why we earnestly want to know what our Teacher is saying to us. Then it becomes a matter of conscience to do what we feel is well pleasing in His sight, and hopefully keep our hearts open to the admission of further light.</p> Bill, Yes we do disagree. Tha…tag:nffquaker.org,2015-04-04:6286598:Comment:240922015-04-04T00:04:10.072ZEllis Heinhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/EllisHein
<p>Bill, Yes we do disagree. Thank you for your willingness to drop the subject.</p>
<p>Ellis</p>
<p>Bill, Yes we do disagree. Thank you for your willingness to drop the subject.</p>
<p>Ellis</p> Allan, Now, having asked you…tag:nffquaker.org,2015-04-04:6286598:Comment:242842015-04-04T00:02:10.174ZEllis Heinhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/EllisHein
<p>Allan, Now, having asked you these questions and having received your answers, I have felt it necessary to make some response. However, I am also feeling like I can't trespass here.</p>
<p>Rather than just drop this. I am constrained to point out something, which I am sure you know. But for the sake of any others who may read this thread, I need to state that we can know these things. We have one given to us to teach us how to live pleasing to the Father. This is one of the functions of…</p>
<p>Allan, Now, having asked you these questions and having received your answers, I have felt it necessary to make some response. However, I am also feeling like I can't trespass here.</p>
<p>Rather than just drop this. I am constrained to point out something, which I am sure you know. But for the sake of any others who may read this thread, I need to state that we can know these things. We have one given to us to teach us how to live pleasing to the Father. This is one of the functions of Christ as he is present in the midst of those who gather in his name. We are not left comfortless, without guidance.</p>
<p>Thanks for your response.</p> Allan,
I can do no better tha…tag:nffquaker.org,2015-04-03:6286598:Comment:242832015-04-03T23:43:31.091ZRebecca Heinhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/RebeccaHein
<p>Allan,</p>
<p>I can do no better than to remind you of something you said awhile back on one of our Fox reading conference calls. At the time, I felt (and still feel) that you were absolutely right; you summed up the matter perfectly in a single sentence:</p>
<p>Someone on the call had asked a question about the "plain speech." After some discussion about it, including who might or might not be called to practice it and why, you said, "It will never fill anyone with a burning zeal to know…</p>
<p>Allan,</p>
<p>I can do no better than to remind you of something you said awhile back on one of our Fox reading conference calls. At the time, I felt (and still feel) that you were absolutely right; you summed up the matter perfectly in a single sentence:</p>
<p>Someone on the call had asked a question about the "plain speech." After some discussion about it, including who might or might not be called to practice it and why, you said, "It will never fill anyone with a burning zeal to know the Lord."</p>
<p></p>
<p>Becky</p> Ellis, I have no argument wit…tag:nffquaker.org,2015-04-03:6286598:Comment:240912015-04-03T14:24:51.719ZEarlon William (Bill) Carsleyhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/EarlonWilliamCarsley
<p>Ellis, I have no argument with you that it's only "by the power of the everlasting gospel" that people are converted and convinced. <em>But if </em>there's no place for biblical apologetics in the mission of Christ-centered Quakerism then Barclay's <em>Apology</em> was also written in vain, and it too was a misguided effort. Are you willing to criticize him as well?</p>
<p>I agree with Becky (and Allan) that there is no point in debating endlessly over this issue. Ellis, you, and some…</p>
<p>Ellis, I have no argument with you that it's only "by the power of the everlasting gospel" that people are converted and convinced. <em>But if </em>there's no place for biblical apologetics in the mission of Christ-centered Quakerism then Barclay's <em>Apology</em> was also written in vain, and it too was a misguided effort. Are you willing to criticize him as well?</p>
<p>I agree with Becky (and Allan) that there is no point in debating endlessly over this issue. Ellis, you, and some others here at NFF, clearly see no light in my proposal (and that's ok). I continue to believe that God has given me something that has real merit, and a great potential for good, in making Christ-centered Quakerism more accessible to the wider world, <em>just as Barclay's efforts did in the 17th Century</em>. You and I just plain disagree about that. I sincerely thank <em>anyone</em> here at NFF (or beyond) who has carefully followed this discussion, for being willing <em>to honestly</em> <em>consider the merits of my proposal</em>. </p>
<p>Now let me say clearly that unless I hear from someone who can see potential light in my proposal, my discussion of this topic <em>on this venue</em> will end right here. Sincere thanks again to the NFF community for the window of opportunity you have provided me for sharing my heart. I wish you all well...</p>
<p>Friend and Brother, Bill</p> Ellis, here are the responses…tag:nffquaker.org,2015-04-03:6286598:Comment:240882015-04-03T02:27:25.306ZAllan Haltonhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/AllanHalton
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">Ellis, here are the responses to your questions.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">I have first stated your question so that others might find this comment easier to follow.</font></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="3"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">1.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">“</font></font>You state that you don't think Fox had the mind of Christ on the matter of the bread and wine. By what means have…</p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">Ellis, here are the responses to your questions.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">I have first stated your question so that others might find this comment easier to follow.</font></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="3"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">1.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">“</font></font>You state that you don't think Fox had the mind of Christ on the matter of the bread and wine. By what means have you arrived at having the mind of Christ?”</p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">Thank you, Ellis, I do seek to apprehend the mind of Christ on all things.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">And I seek to do it by searching out the Scriptures, as George Fox did.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">George Fox could hardly think without quoting Scripture.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">“All scripture is given by inspiration of God [is God breathed] and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness...” (2 Tim. 3:16).</font></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="3"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">And so on this matter we are discussing, I set forth the contradiction between what George Fox taught, and what the apostle Paul taught.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">Fox, quoting from Scripture, took his stand on the basis of words Jesus spoke to the church of Laodicea.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">He viewed that as a “coming” of Christ that abrogated the Lord’s supper.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">I am not convinced that it is right to teach that this is the “coming” Paul had in mind when he said that in keeping the Lord’s supper, “you do shew the Lord’s death till He come.”</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">I have set forth my reasons, quoting from Scripture, in previous posts.</font><font size="3"> </font></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="3"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">2.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">“</font>Fox labored in the gospel for his entire adult life, having ample time for Christ to correct him if he were mistaken. Do you find any evidence of hardness of heart in Fox which would indicate his turning away from Christ's correction?”</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="3"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">No, I don’t see evidence of hardness of heart in our beloved George Fox.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">But I do see occasional evidence of one who knew “in part.”</font><font size="3"> </font></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="3"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">3.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">“</font>If you find no evidence of hardness of heart, and if Fox was mistaken in this matter, why did Christ fail to correct him in something that you deem so important?”</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="3"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">That is a good question.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">Are you aware of William Booth and the Salvation Army?</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">Like the Quakers, they too did not observe water baptism or the Lord’s supper.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">Yet in the early days of the Salvation Army (in the 19</font><sup><font size="2">th</font></sup> <font size="3">century), they were used mightily by the Lord to reach the lost.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">And like the Quakers, they were greatly scorned by the religious establishment.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">Consider also the early (18</font><sup><font size="2">th</font></sup> <font size="3">century) Methodists.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">They observed baptism by sprinkling, which is entirely unscriptural.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">Yet the Lord was very much with the early Methodists, who also found themselves in trouble with the religious establishment.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">So it appears that the Lord did not “correct” any of these groups concerning their short sightedness.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">It must be because of His great patience in dealing with men who “know in part.”</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">This, of course, does not mean that in matters essential to the living faith He is willing to do the same.</font> <font size="3"> </font></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="3"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">4.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">“</font>Did Fox feed upon the living bread?” </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">Yes.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">So did the Corinthians who also partook of the Lord’s supper.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">In fact Paul says that they themselves had become “living bread,” for they were partakers of that bread (1 Cor. 10:17).</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">Ellis, Paul did not teach that the one replaces the other.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">To observe the Lord’s supper apart from being in the spiritual reality of “the communion [fellowship] of the blood of Christ, and “the communion [fellowship] of the body of Christ,” is apostasy.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">It could even result in sickness or death (1 Cor. 11:30).</font></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="3"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">5.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">“</font>By what power did Fox attain life, as amply testified to by numerous witness and the crowning of his testimony with cruel sufferings cheerfully borne and overcome?”</font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">I am not sure I understand why you are asking this of me.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">I don’t stand in doubt of the power of Christ that worked in him, nor his willingness to cheerfully suffer evil along with the Gospel.</font></font></p>
<p><font face="Arial" size="3"> </font></p>
<p><font face="Arial"><font size="3">Ellis, I am not feeling to pursue this further.</font><font size="3"> </font> <font size="3">I have set forth my understanding out of an honest heart, and am willing to walk with others who view this matter differently. Do we love the Light? That is the main thing for me. </font> <font size="3">As we all seek to walk in the Light "unto the perfect day," all things will become more and more clear.</font><font size="3"> </font></font></p>
<p></p> Becky, I have no interest in…tag:nffquaker.org,2015-04-02:6286598:Comment:243832015-04-02T21:20:58.108ZAllan Haltonhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/AllanHalton
<p>Becky, I have no interest in pursuing "endless debate" about this matter. If we can't pursue this as a respectful discussion among those who are interested in truth (not in mere academics), I have no desire to be part of it. I think that is the very answer to your question. I for one want to hear what Christ is saying to me, and don't assume that I have already heard all that He has to say to me on these matters. I take my position along with the apostle Paul, who said, "we know in…</p>
<p>Becky, I have no interest in pursuing "endless debate" about this matter. If we can't pursue this as a respectful discussion among those who are interested in truth (not in mere academics), I have no desire to be part of it. I think that is the very answer to your question. I for one want to hear what Christ is saying to me, and don't assume that I have already heard all that He has to say to me on these matters. I take my position along with the apostle Paul, who said, "we know in part." So I want to continue to be teachable-- by discerning the voice of Him who is my present Teacher and Guide, and following Him. </p>
<p>Is it possible He Himself is trying to speak regarding the keeping of the Lord's supper? Let each of us on both "sides" of this "debate" be careful to recognize that He may be "trying to speak to us but is being drowned out."</p>
<p></p>
<p>Ellis, I do hope to have something by way of a response to the questions you asked me.</p> Allan and Bill:
Neither of yo…tag:nffquaker.org,2015-04-02:6286598:Comment:241792015-04-02T19:46:36.032ZRebecca Heinhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/RebeccaHein
<p>Allan and Bill:</p>
<p>Neither of you has responded in any meaningful way to the point I raised under Bill's earlier thread, "Who's Standing in the Gap?":</p>
<p>That point is, since by virtue of your being Christians, you have invited Christ in to sup with you and to speak to you, what is the purpose of this endless debate about when he came, whether or not he came, what the Bible says about when he came (or is to come)? And now, added to this debate is a further argument about which…</p>
<p>Allan and Bill:</p>
<p>Neither of you has responded in any meaningful way to the point I raised under Bill's earlier thread, "Who's Standing in the Gap?":</p>
<p>That point is, since by virtue of your being Christians, you have invited Christ in to sup with you and to speak to you, what is the purpose of this endless debate about when he came, whether or not he came, what the Bible says about when he came (or is to come)? And now, added to this debate is a further argument about which religious procedures we are to follow or not follow. How does all this debating help us hear him now, when he is trying to speak to us but is being drowned out?</p>
<p>Good intentions and a desire to make oneself understood won't help anybody if it is obscuring the voice of our present Teacher and Guide.</p>
<p>Becky Hein</p> Bill, You cannot promote the…tag:nffquaker.org,2015-04-02:6286598:Comment:240822015-04-02T13:15:15.063ZEllis Heinhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/EllisHein
<p>Bill, You cannot promote the truth by adopting a false position. I do not reject the Preterist view because it is something new to me. I reject it because it does not represent Fox and the early Quakers. While there may be some surface similarities between the Preterist's point of view and how Fox treats the coming of Christ. That is all they are: surface similarities. The fundamental dynamic of Fox's Christology is, "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with…</p>
<p>Bill, You cannot promote the truth by adopting a false position. I do not reject the Preterist view because it is something new to me. I reject it because it does not represent Fox and the early Quakers. While there may be some surface similarities between the Preterist's point of view and how Fox treats the coming of Christ. That is all they are: surface similarities. The fundamental dynamic of Fox's Christology is, "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life--and the Word was manifested and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also." Fox's Christology is based on his experience of Christ and openings he received from Christ.</p>
<p>You have expressed your hope that by adopting a Preterist stance we could reach more of the "Christian" world with Fox's message. That would be a falsehood, a misrepresentation of Fox and the early Quakers. By the power of the everlasting gospel one in every hundred Englishmen became a Quaker during the period of Fox's lifetime. By the power of the everlasting gospel alone will people be reached today. Put your trust in nothing else. If you have experienced this power to shake the earth within you till only that which cannot be shaken remains, if you have experienced this, do not turn away from it. You cannot enhance it by all the lies of the serpent.</p>
<p>Ellis</p> Allan, Thank you for your com…tag:nffquaker.org,2015-04-02:6286598:Comment:243812015-04-02T13:00:59.347ZEllis Heinhttp://nffquaker.org/profile/EllisHein
<p>Allan, Thank you for your comments. I know you do not see eye to eye with Fox on this subject. There are some questions I want to ask, but I don't know that you need feel compelled to answer them.</p>
<ol>
<li>You state that you don't think Fox had the mind of Christ on the matter of the bread and wine. By what means have you arrived at having the mind of Christ?</li>
<li>Fox labored in the gospel for his entire adult life, having ample time for Christ to correct him if he were mistaken. Do…</li>
</ol>
<p>Allan, Thank you for your comments. I know you do not see eye to eye with Fox on this subject. There are some questions I want to ask, but I don't know that you need feel compelled to answer them.</p>
<ol>
<li>You state that you don't think Fox had the mind of Christ on the matter of the bread and wine. By what means have you arrived at having the mind of Christ?</li>
<li>Fox labored in the gospel for his entire adult life, having ample time for Christ to correct him if he were mistaken. Do you find any evidence of hardness of heart in Fox which would indicate his turning away from Christ's correction?</li>
<li>If you find no evidence of hardness of heart, and if Fox was mistaken in this matter, why did Christ fail to correct him in something that you deem so important?</li>
<li>Did Fox feed upon the living bread?</li>
<li>By what power did Fox attain life, as amply testified to by numerous witness and the crowning of his testimony with cruel sufferings cheerfully borne and overcome? (I don't think I have made that very clear, but it is the best I can do for the moment.)</li>
</ol>
<p>Whether or not you wish to make answers to these question. I am glad you have taken the time to comment and I hope to consider the above.</p>
<p>Ellis</p>