Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 27, 2012 at 13:55

Brenda, thanks for posting this. I grew up in Evangelical Friends, which is much more closely related to Wesley than Fox. I have not found the experience of the holiness teaching to be the equivalent to the experience of coming into what Fox taught. Yes they use some of the same words, but one leads to life; the other leads to frustration or wierd theology to account for the short comings of our best efforts. Ellis

Comment by Brenda Jackson on 3rdMo. 27, 2012 at 16:10

leads to frustration or weird theology to account for the shortcomings of our best efforts.

Thanks Ellis, and spot on with that observation. I don`t agree with Carole Spencer in Holiness the Soul of Quakerism as she is saying that the holiness in the Holiness Movement and Wesleyism is the same as the holiness George taught and walked in although she was right about it being the soul of Quakerism. Just a different type of holiness. They only went so far as to claim freedom from known sin (although Wesley was often inconsistent on this) whereas George said that all unrighteousness is sin.

Brenda

Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 27, 2012 at 16:12

On reflection, I think it important to mention also that the gospel preached by Fox and the early Quakers lead to the people of God who are gathered to Christ, to hear him and to receive from him all those things he brings as the result of being present in the midst of his people in all his offices. The holiness teaching that came from Wesley does not lead to this people of God.

Comment by Brenda Jackson on 3rdMo. 27, 2012 at 19:16

I am  pleased that you brought this up Ellis as I have wondered exactly what people mean by it and what George meant by it and whether it is the same idea. I get the impression that people mean that when they gather Christ comes and sort of stands in the middle of the circle but Paul says  that when we are in Christ, He is dwelling within us all of the time whereas the other gives the impression that He comes and goes according to the meeting of His people which comes from the ideas of Lewis Benson I think. Can you speak a little about this please? What exactly is `midst`?

Brenda

Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 28, 2012 at 14:05

No, the idea of a come and go Christ is not something coming from Lewis Benson. There are several of his essays found in NFP #s 1,2,4, and 5 (I think #2 was incorporated in #5 and thus not available as #2). You can also read his Catholic Quakerism (now titled A Universal Christian Faith) These may be available from the "Book Shop" tab above or contact Allistair Lomax.

 

Regarding what Christ does in the midst: In 36 years of attending various evangelical groups ranging from Evangelical Friends to Bible Missionary, I never once had the sense that I was in anything other than a company of individuals as opposed to being part of the people of God. Every group I ever had opportunity to observe professed the truth of the scripture, "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them. However, when I asked them, "What are you here for?" I gathered many different answers. But no one ever answered I or we are gathered to hear our prophet like Moses who will teach us the Father's righteousness and give us the power to do that righteousness as a united body. (The corporate testimonies of the early Friends were testimonies to the power of Christ to lead them into unity on matters that cost them much.) No one answered, "We are come to hear Christ our teacher teach us how to live godly lives in this present evil world." No one answered, "We are come to experience the cleansing andwashing by Christ our priest who renews us up into the life of the Father and presents us to the Father as a spotless, holy people, (not a mixed crowd)." No one ever said, "We are here to receive what Christ brings to us as he gathers us to himself. For contrast, read Edward Burrough's preface to volume three, particularly the section where he describes the rise of the early Quakers in the north country (if my geography is correct).

 

The people I observed could speak of individual experience, but there was no sense of God's kingdom come, God's will done in us as in heaven, let alone on Earth as in heaven.

 

The proclamation of Christ is come to teach his people himself is a proclamation of the gathering of the new-covenant people to Christ Jesus, who is the new covenant because of what he does in his people individually and corporately. To live an individual righteous life is a good thing, The witness to the world is compounded when the people of God are united in living out the Father's righteousness before the whole world regardless of the persecution and obstacles to the contrary.

 

Now where is this, "in the midst?" In the exact center of the life of the new covenant community. Moses said the people of God should hear this prophet is all things. Peter declared that whoever didn't hear him in all things was cut off from the people of God.

 

Now, I think I have done all you asked me here, except be brief. I am sure that if Lewis were alive still, he could have given you a much better answer.

 

Ellis

Comment by Brenda Jackson on 3rdMo. 31, 2012 at 15:05

Hi Ellis

Many thanks for your helpful and detailed reply. Apologies for the delay but my first reply is lost in cyberspace.

I have read quite a few of Lewis Benson`s writings and particiularly Catholic Quakerism which I spent some time studying and think he made some excellent observations. My books however are all packed in boxes awaiting my next move (which I hope will be the last, since my return from living in Germany).

I am in agreement about Protestant groups who say that revelation is all in scripture these days and that their greatest error is in believing that we are all able to comprehend scripture individually whereas, it is the living Word who speaks to us and the way to be sure that it is He who has spoken is when two or three gather together in His name I find that I can read writings from the past and find others who are in complete agreement even if I cannot find that locally which I feel is the same thing though not ideal - Christ would want it otherwise but for many times in history it has not been so and we have only really seen it once amongst the early Quakers where they were given the power to do that righteousness as a united body, though some groups came nearer than others.

It is the in His name I feel that confusion and error arises, beause the `gathering` must be those who give the testimony that Fox and his associates gave, of coming up through the flamimg sword to the state of Adam before the fall because this is the start of the New Covenant and before that we are seekers. These are those who do the will of God on earth as it is in heaven and for whom the Lord`s Prayer is meant. Praying for Thy kingdom come is for this earth and in our lifetime not after this life as apostate Christianity says. Jesus spoke to disiples who had not yet become submitted to the kingdom when He taught the prayer which is a prayer for entire sanctification.

So  when they gather to hear the Prophet like Moses speak, they are not hearing Him in His fullness That can only occur when they are righeous indeed like the early Friends who were able to give that testimony and although it is preferable to be a seeker than to be one who says we cannot stop sinning in this lfe, we can easily make the error that we are being obedient by hoping for it or even worse thinking we have already achieved it.

 

If this was so then the communities where we gather would be turned upside down by us having the power of God within and Christ in our midst.  As it is not so then the reality is that we do not have Him in our midst though He is certainly around at times.

Lewis Benson taught that He is there without us having to be without sin which was not the teaching of George Fox and the others.

Comment by Brenda Jackson on 3rdMo. 31, 2012 at 15:41

Just a corrective note Where I say hoping for it I meant being content to stay in that hoping position or not giving it the uttmost priority in life If we are not fully in the kingdom we risk falling into apostacy and this message which George gave angered many who thought they were in the kingdom because they had come to Christ once for forgivness.

Comment by Brenda Jackson on 3rdMo. 31, 2012 at 19:13

The Epistle To The Reader

by

Edward Burrough

London the 9. Mo. 1658

(Part 3 of 5)

"To all manner of sufferings and reproaches, and hard trials ..."

"Sufferings without, from open enemies and from our own kindred and relations, and sufferings within, for the seed's sake -- all these made us well acquainted with griefs; yet in our trials and afflictions, the Lord never forsook us, but his wisdom, love, and life, and presence increased in us and with us."

From my own studying, it is this extreme level of suffering which shows that the true gospel is being stood for, even if no word is spoken because it is in the spiritual realm and a man who is in the kingdom will be rejected by his own family and it is because that man will preach up sinlessness which is guaranteed to anger the enemy of our souls. I believe that the early Quakers were preaching this as their central truth. No one becomes angry if we say we gather to hear Christ speak to us but say to the church it must be oerfect and see what happens.

Brenda

Comment by Ellis Hein on 3rdMo. 31, 2012 at 23:52

Yes, yes, yes!

 

I am behind in commenting on your very good comments and may never catch up. But this last, commenting on Edward Burrough's Epistle, is an excellent observation (I don't mean the implication that your other comments are less). This has been my experience many times. If we are content to smudge the distinction between truth and error we are well loved. If our purpose is to draw the lines as sharply as we are given to know and stick to what we are given we are thrown out.

 

Ellis

Comment by Ellis Hein on 4thMo. 1, 2012 at 14:38

Regarding your question of what it means to be gathered in Jesus' name.

That scripture, "Where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them," like the passage in John 4, "The hour is coming and now is when those who worship the Father must worship him in spirit and truth," are generally  not understood.

Groups assume that because they can quote the passages, therefore it is so. But I always had a misgiving that something wasn't as it should be.

In the days of the early Quakers, there were a number of different groups, each claiming to meet in Jesus' name. But when the King changed or parliament changed and they were not in favor with the current government, either the people met secretly to avoid the penalties of law, or they changed to another organization. They were, therefore, gathered in the parliament's or in the King's name. They existed by the authority of the government.

Fox said on many occasions, "Your gathering has been to Christ, by Christ." He counseled Friends to "Keep your testimony for your meetings" as in sermon 5 of That Thy Candles May Always Be Burning. This counsel was not just for times of toleration by authority, but was given during persecution also. Keep your testimony that you are gathered by Christ's authority and Christ's power. This is an authority greater than man's authority. Its power is greater than the power of government to allow or disallow.

The next question is, "How does one come into that position of meeting in Jesus' name? Quoting from Edward Burrough's preface to vol. 3 of the Works of Fox, "And we found this light to be a sufficient teacher, to lead us to Christ, from whence this light came, and thereby it gave us to receive Christ, and to witness him to dwell in us, and through it the new covenant we came to enter into, to be made heirs of life and salvation. And in all things we found the light which we were enlightened withal, (which is Christ,) to be ALONE AND ONLY sufficient to bring to life and eternal salvation; and that all who did own the light in them, which Christ hath enlightened every  man withal, they needed no man to teach them but the Lord was their teacher, by his light in their own consciences, and they received the holy anointing."

"And so we ceased from… (list) and by this light of Christ in us were we led out of …(another list) …We met together often, and waited upon the Lord in pure silence from our own words, and all man's words, and hearkened to the voice of the Lord, and felt his word in our hearts to burn up and beat down all that was contrary to God; and we obeyed the light of Christ in us…" And he goes on to list the consequences of that obedience as well as the manifestations of God's acceptance of them. "…And thus we became followers of the Lamb whithersoever he goes; …And after this manner was our birth or bringing forth, and thus hath the Lord chosen us and made us an army dreadful and terrible, before whom the wicked do fear and tremble…" (pp. 12-14)

Edward Burrough's description of the path to be followed is quite plain and unambiguous. People claim that the early Quaker's path was "right and good" for them but not for us today. So we are come back to trying to make it a fact that we are gathered in Jesus' name by quoting scripture at the problem, as though it were some magic incantation. Only by coming again to Edward Burrough's "And thus we became followers of the Lamb…" will we know what it is to meet in Jesus' name.

Ellis.

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