Reproclaiming the Everlasting Gospel
HEARING GOD SPEAK IN THE HOLY PLACE INTRODUCTION.
“Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? Or who shall stand in His holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully" (Psalms xxiv. 3, 4).
As a newbie I will give an introduction to myself. I had been following Christ for quite some time, over thirty years, before I came across Quakerism and George Fox. I had become greatly dis-satisfied with what I found in evangelical Christianity because no-one could answer my question which was, how does one become like the Christians in the New Testament, because I found myself unable to reach that standard – I was constantly feeling a failure and that I was letting Christ down. What I wanted to know was, how could feel worthy of the grace God had shown me and be an obedient disciple? And why could I not find others who were living a pure and sinless life? Instead I saw disobedience and worldliness all around me in those who were supposed to be `little Christs`.
My will power was not sufficient. Some told me that I was already holy because God only sees Christ when He looks at me. I could not accept that because it says in the scriptures that we are to be over-comers and in my heart, I was not. I constantly struggled with a `proneness to wander` in the wilderness of apathy and lack of trust towards God. I had great respect for Christ but in my heart I did not love Him with the whole of my being – how could I when I still found myself giving in to questioning Him and feeling deserted in the hours of my greatest need and still struggling with certain sins like lack of patience and love towards others.
I was hearing two voices. One said everything was ok, I should ignore the other voice that told me it was not. Which one was right? I think I was fortunate in being sick so that my involvement in church was limited, and if you do not attend regularly, you just get forgotten about. So I was left to `wander` on my own. The voices in the churches did not speak to my condition so I listened to the voice within and the answer came eventually, and it was that Christ was the only one who could help me. And He did. He began to teach me about holiness and lead me by way of the cross, to the flaming sword which stands in the entrance to paradise. Those who dwell in that holy place where they are restored to the state Adam was in before he fell (first stage) are those who hear God in fullness of His revelation rather than on occasion and who are transformed by His power to overcome sin, the world and the devil.
My joy knew no bounds when I discovered the writings of George Fox, and felt that had come home, in finding someone who had trodden the same path and who led a group of people into the same experience he had been through and the same as myself. I had found holiness writings of the Wesley school, but they did not resonate with me the way Georges` writings did and I came to see that most of those in the holiness movement had not gone as far as he though they were on the right path. None were as enlightened as George.
Brenda
Views: 852
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 4thMo. 6, 2012 at 15:54 -
Ellis
We are in agreement with most of what you have said. There is indeed no holiness unless we abide in the teaching of Christ. And indeed those who are abiding in His teaching are therefore arrayed in the fine linen of Christ`s righteouness - a beautiful picture indeed and those who are out of the gospel order are listening to the wrong teacher, the enemy of our souls, and therefore out of the image and likeness to God and His holiness, and are instead like unto Adam after he fell in that they sin.
As Fox says "Now this is an everlasting and invisible power, of which you are helpmeets in the restoration by Christ, the heavenly and spiritual man, whereby you are brought into the image, likeness, righteousness, holiness and power of God that men and women were in before they fell"
In the restoration, the head of the adversary is bruised, under the feet of the Son of God on the cross on which he gained the victory for His people over sin, self and the world. The work has already been done, and those who have had the voice of the enemy silenced and are now listening to the voice of Christ, have been restored and share with Christ His nature and walk like Him over the earth, in uttmost obedience to the Father and sin no more and are therefore in the image that Adam lost.
Fox had harsh words for those who called themselves Christians but who had not known the bruising of the head of the enemy and who were not freed from sin. In Works Volume 2 he said
A warning to England, and all that profess themselves Christian, who have the form but deny the Power of Godliness, that they sin no more lest a worse thing comes upon them. As ye have received Christ Jesus so walk in Him Col. 2:6 For as our Godis a consuming fire Heb 7:29 And now, all you that do not walk as you have the apostles as an example and do walk as Christ walked as in 1John 2:6" He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also to walk even as He walked. He that commiteth sin is of the devil 1John 3:8 (my quotes)
Fox is clear, that if anyone sins he is out of the gospel order and out of the righteouness of Christ. There is no place for a struggle with the old nature, as the power comes from God and therefore those who are not freed from sin are not in the power thereof and are not back in the state of Adam before he fell otherwise they would witness to the fact that they are free from sin indeed as did Fox and his associates.
Fox was indeed alone in this teaching in his day and the early Quakers the only group who were formed together since the day of the apostles. He was however required to make an emphasis that it is Christ who teaches us directly because it was a time where men were required to submit to the teachings of church leaders, but today we are in a different position in that the Protestant movement has stressed that each man is taught by Christ (or the Holy Spirit) and can interpret the scriptures themselves.
So to preach that Christ has come to teach His people Himself does not have the impact that it did in his day and no-one in the apostate Protestant church will disagree with that. It is indeed what they have been saying since the Reformation and is the reason for the thousands of denominations.
But they have not (in the whole) been preaching the bruising of the head of the enemy and the need for a man to have been restored to the sinless state of Adam before he can hear the voice of Christ. And neither are Quakers.
Brenda
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Comment by Ellis Hein on 4thMo. 9, 2012 at 14:16 -
No, we are not in agreement, and I find the differences are important enough to pursue, at least to make them clear and plain.
You state at the close of your previous comment:
But they have not…been preaching the bruising the head of the enemy and the need for a man to have been restored to the sinless state of Adam before he can hear the voice of Christ.
(I think I am not misrepresenting you here by lifting the above statement out of the full context.) I have tried to state that first comes hearing the voice of Christ before one comes to righteousness. Unless I am completely misunderstanding you, you are stating that first comes righteousness before one can hear Christ's voice.
In the restoration, the head of the enemy is bruised under the feet of the Son of God on the cross on which he gained the victory for his people over sin, self, and the world.
The work of the cross was the same on Jesus as on the two thieves curcified with him. It resulted in their death. The enemy's head was/is bruised by Jesus' ressurection and continued presence in and among those who will hear and follow him.
There is no place for a struggle with the old nature…
I am not sure what you mean by this statement. If by this you mean there is no place for a process of being brought out from under the headship of Satan and coming to hear Christ in all things, then I direct you to Fox's epistles 10, 24, and 32 (as examples). Also see Edward Burrough's preface to Fox's volume 3 and Stephen Crisp's account of his convincement. There has certainly been a struggle in my case. The Word of the Lord does not beat down and burn up all that is contrary to God without suffering, The earth within is not plowed up, ripped up, shaken down, and thrown out without being sensible of pain and loss. The light does not show sin in the heart without bringing a sense of shame and remorse. Even if these ministrations of Christ are willingly submitted to they are attended by a sense of the death of the old life and a birth of the new.
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 4thMo. 9, 2012 at 23:52
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Ellis
Unless I am completely misunderstanding you, you are stating that first comes righteousness before one can hear Christ's voice.
Sorry to give that impression, I dont mean that exactly. What I mean is that one cannot hear Him *in His fulness*, in a face to face connection with Him unless one has the pure heart and can stand in the Holy Place as my introduction verse states.
Before that, a man has light and is aware of Christ who will grace him with His words at times and will continue to speak to him if he is seeking righteousness. The Lord is patient and will lead the man through many trials to bring him to the Holy Place. So yes he does hear Christ but not in the way `hear` is meant by way of obedience in all things.
And yes I agree that there will be a struggle - a terrible struggle to bring the man to the death of his old life. I think however we need to be more specific about when the new life is brought about.
Am I to believe that you say it is the process which initially brings a man to Christ who did not know Him before for forgiveness of his sins? I am having trouble being certain about how you are understanding timing. When is convincement?
One does not struggle with the old nature once one hears Christ in all things - are we in agreement about that? What is sinlessness and when does it occur?
Romans 5:9 says we are justified by His blood. It is His shed blood which cleanses us from sin which is what bruises the head of Satan in my understanding.
Brenda
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Comment by Ellis Hein on 4thMo. 11, 2012 at 20:54
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Brenda,
Thank you for the clarification. Your comments make more sense to me now.
Regarding being justified by Christ blood (from Romans 5:9) This is referring to the Old Testament practice of sacrifices. In these sacrifices, there were certain prescriptions of what could be eaten, but never the blood which represented the life of the sacrificed animal. When the blood of the lamb was sprinkled on the congregation, this signified the life of the lamb purifying them. But we are now come to the substance; the shadows have flown away. We are not sprinkled by blood to cleanse our hearts from the dead works that we may serve the living God. We are come to Christ the substance of the shadows and it is life, his life, that makes my heart alive.
Satan's power, i.e. his head, lies in death and deception. Jesus destroys the power of death and darkness (bruises his head) by the power of his life and light. Convincement happens when I am brought to the decision that I must either put all my eggs in the one basket of following the light Jesus has enlightened me with, or I must die.
Some approach salvation with the question, "What is the minimum I must do in order to go to heaven when I die?" As long as one does that minimum, one has the assurance of salvation. However, Edward Burrough states in his introduction to Vol. 3 of Fox's Works that the light of Christ, which enlightens every man, is a sufficient teacher to lead us to Christ, it enables us to receive Christ and to witness him to dwell within, and through the light we come into the new covenant. This doesn't happen if I hide some of my eggs in a nest elsewhere, in case this light-of-Christ basket proves to leak eggs. You may have run into this many times.
Ok, enough from me. I will let someone else comment on this discussion.
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 4thMo. 12, 2012 at 13:42
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Ellis
Thank you for your participation so far but I am still in the dark over a few matters and I wish that we had got as far as discussing Romans 7 , whether you see Paul as an unconverted Jew, so that I could gain more understanding on *your* beliefs concerning salvation ie when it happens and how. Oh well I suppose I will just have to stay in the dark.
We are not sprinkled by blood to cleanse our hearts from the dead works that we may serve the living God. We are come to Christ the substance of the shadows and it is life, his life, that makes my heart alive.
It is my understanding from scripture which I feel is clear that we are sprinkled by His blood in the spiritual sense, His holy and pure blood, whereas in the OT it was the blood of beasts as a shadow. We are washed in His blood, purchased by His blood Acts 20:28 have redemption through His blood Eph 1:7 etc etc when we come to Him, in the Holy place where we are made holy and can therefore hear Him speak as a bridegroom to his bride, the washed and purified church of God, the bride of Christ sharing in His nature, one with Him.
in Friendship
Brenda.
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Comment by Ellis Hein on 4thMo. 12, 2012 at 20:33
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Brenda, Since announcing that I was retiring from this discussion, I have been feeling quite unsettled, as though I am not allowed to do so. So, as we intimate here "out west", even though I have used up my allotment of words, I will continue to participate in the discussion. Do you have particular questions you wanted to put to me, or do I consider the ones you asked in the previous comment sufficient assignment to comment on? I realize I may be stepping into the frying pan, but I make myself available to be grilled. The Apostle Paul has never been an easy subject for me, but perhaps I will gain some new insights/openings as we proceed. Ellis
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 4thMo. 15, 2012 at 13:01
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Why thank you Ellis for being willing to communicate further. I am keen on understanding how the NFF is interpreting Lewis Bensons work and how he interpreted Fox (I already understand how Fox interpreted scripture) especially what he says here ;
"Early Years and Translation"
"Moreover, the Lord God let me see, when I was brought up into his image in righteousness and holiness, and into the state of the paradise of God how Adam was made a living soul; and also to the stature of Christ, the mystery that had been hid from ages and generations: which things are hard to be uttered, and cannot be borne by many. For of all the sects in Christendom (so called) that I discussed with, I found none that could bear to be told that anyone could spiritually grow to Adam's perfection, (that is into that image of God, and righteousness and holiness that Adam was in before he fell), to be clear and pure without sin as he was. Therefore, how would they be able to bear being told that any should spiritually grow up to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; when it threatens them to hear that any shall come, while upon earth, into the same power and spirit that the prophets and apostles were in? Though it is an absolute truth, that none can understand the Apostle’s writings correctly without the same spirit by which they were written."
and seeing as you are the only one willing to discuss anything with me......lets continue!
I want to know why Benson did not give the same testimony as Fox ie that he was as perfect as Adam was before he fell, and even higher as Fox discusses, the perfection even of Christ, why revival did not break out as it did when Fox preached holiness and has happened since when others preached, as this, to me, and I believe to Fox is the core message of apostolic time and early Quaker times but does not seem to be in Benson times or am I mistaken?.
But it would be good to come to some agreement on the apostle Paul and how he saw the doctrine and to try to establish whether we are talking about a `second blessing` or not. From what I can gather the NFF believes that coming up through the flaming sword as a first experience of coming to Christ then what is necessary is to hear Him and then sins will gradually go.
Therefore an understanding for me of how you interpret Romans 7 would be very useful.
So it is this method of sanctification that I would like clearness over and maybe suggestions over further reading material that would provide answers.
I must add that my presence here is because I am an utterly convinced Quaker and respect and follow the teachings of Fox and defend him to the hilt. No other Christina group will accept me because of this and to find no place in Quakersim is very isolating so I do appreciate you being willing to answer my questions and will endeavour to keep the grill on medium :)
in Friendship
Brenda
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 4thMo. 15, 2012 at 13:30
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"So why do I want answers to these things" you might ask? Why cant I just be content to`abide in my light`? Well I am convinced that the Lord has revealed things to me that I have not been taught by men. I feel a need to be in fellowship - to be in one mind with others. I am in one mind over many things here, but I cant find agreement over what to me is the core issue and the most important thing to man that is, how does he please God with his heart? How is he sanctified?
The things that I believe God has revealed to me have come through great suffering. Although I am not in an age, area and time when I can be imprisioned or beaten for my beliefs, the Lord has allowed sufferings for me in health and relationships especially with family.
I am 62 and seriously sick, unable to know how long I will continue to live having no medical help and I am just about entirely alone (there is an aquaintance or two who are just neighbours, neither of whom I can discuss spiritual matters.) I accept these things as necessary for spiritual growth and climbing the mountain up to God, is always a lonely pathway. So I am not complaining.
I find that the things that God has revealed to me in Fox`s teachings but find it hard to find others who wish to discuss them in the `Quaker Way`of continuing to seek to be of one mind.
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Comment by Ellis Hein on 4thMo. 16, 2012 at 17:28
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Brenda, Again thanks for the explanations. I will be considering your two previous comments to see if I have/am given anything of use to contribute. Ellis
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Comment by Ellis Hein on 4thMo. 20, 2012 at 0:08
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Brenda, this is just the beginning of my comments. But I got to wondering if you ever had opportunity to meet Lewis Benson? If so perhaps you discussed some of these issues with him. That would be far preferable to my trying to speak for him now. Also do you, or have you seen Lewis' two series of Moorestown lectures? One was 10 lectures and the other was 5.
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