Reproclaiming the Everlasting Gospel
HEARING GOD SPEAK IN THE HOLY PLACE INTRODUCTION.
“Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? Or who shall stand in His holy place? He that hath clean hands, and a pure heart; who hath not lifted up his soul unto vanity, nor sworn deceitfully" (Psalms xxiv. 3, 4).
As a newbie I will give an introduction to myself. I had been following Christ for quite some time, over thirty years, before I came across Quakerism and George Fox. I had become greatly dis-satisfied with what I found in evangelical Christianity because no-one could answer my question which was, how does one become like the Christians in the New Testament, because I found myself unable to reach that standard – I was constantly feeling a failure and that I was letting Christ down. What I wanted to know was, how could feel worthy of the grace God had shown me and be an obedient disciple? And why could I not find others who were living a pure and sinless life? Instead I saw disobedience and worldliness all around me in those who were supposed to be `little Christs`.
My will power was not sufficient. Some told me that I was already holy because God only sees Christ when He looks at me. I could not accept that because it says in the scriptures that we are to be over-comers and in my heart, I was not. I constantly struggled with a `proneness to wander` in the wilderness of apathy and lack of trust towards God. I had great respect for Christ but in my heart I did not love Him with the whole of my being – how could I when I still found myself giving in to questioning Him and feeling deserted in the hours of my greatest need and still struggling with certain sins like lack of patience and love towards others.
I was hearing two voices. One said everything was ok, I should ignore the other voice that told me it was not. Which one was right? I think I was fortunate in being sick so that my involvement in church was limited, and if you do not attend regularly, you just get forgotten about. So I was left to `wander` on my own. The voices in the churches did not speak to my condition so I listened to the voice within and the answer came eventually, and it was that Christ was the only one who could help me. And He did. He began to teach me about holiness and lead me by way of the cross, to the flaming sword which stands in the entrance to paradise. Those who dwell in that holy place where they are restored to the state Adam was in before he fell (first stage) are those who hear God in fullness of His revelation rather than on occasion and who are transformed by His power to overcome sin, the world and the devil.
My joy knew no bounds when I discovered the writings of George Fox, and felt that had come home, in finding someone who had trodden the same path and who led a group of people into the same experience he had been through and the same as myself. I had found holiness writings of the Wesley school, but they did not resonate with me the way Georges` writings did and I came to see that most of those in the holiness movement had not gone as far as he though they were on the right path. None were as enlightened as George.
Brenda
Views: 852
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 4thMo. 20, 2012 at 10:07 -
Ellis
HAPPY BIRTHDAY!
Unfortunately I did not meet him and would have loved some discussion with him. I have not read the lectures but would be interested in doing so. I would not learn anything new however, on his beliefs about entire sanctification as I already understand them from the writings I do have and by the beliefs of the brethren of NFF who hold the same beliefs, being followers of Bensons teachings.
Brenda
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Comment by Ellis Hein on 4thMo. 20, 2012 at 18:07 -
Brenda, Thanks for the birthday wishes.
Could you spell out for me what Lewis' beliefs were about entire sanctification? Can you define the term "entire sanctification" and state what your beliefs are and how they differ from Lewis'? That might be a tall order, but it seems necessary to be clear on what we are talking about.
And don't worry about offending me by saying something "I should already know". I am no theologian so sometimes it takes a while for these things to make sense and soak in.
Ellis
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 4thMo. 21, 2012 at 17:13
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Ellis
George Fox taught the doctrine of entire sanctification:- “At last they asked me whether I was sanctified. I said “Sanctified? Yes, for I was in the Paradise of God” They said had I no sin “Sin?” said I “Christ my Saviour hath taken away my sin and in Him there is no sin” They asked how we knew that Christ did abide in us I said “By His Spirit that He has given us” They temptingly asked if any of us were Christ I answered “Nay, we are nothing, Christ is all” They said “If any man steal is it no sin?” I answered “All unrighteousness is sin”. (Journal)
Fox made it clear that he was not talking about being sanctified as a ‘position’ nor that the blood of Jesus hides our sins and God does not see them. He said that all unrighteousness in actions is sin, but further, that the ‘holy men’ pleaded for holiness in HEART and life, and conversation here’ (Journal) He was in agreement with the Apostle John in his first letter, who said in 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you, he that doth righteousness IS righteous, even as He is righteous. There is no imputed righteousness, the doctrine over which the Puritans refuted Fox. It is an imparted righteousness.
I have taken this quotation from an article I wrote :
http://christianquaker.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=ar...
Entire sanctification is where a man is restored to the position that Adam was before he fell, experienced by Fox and described by him when he came through the flaming sword. This is what qualified him to be a minister of the gospel, which is the teaching of this doctrine as a necessary entrance into the kingdom of God otherwise no man shall see God being unrighteous still.
Fox denied that a man can preach the gospel unless he is qualified likwise
all people may see by Christ's own words, that their saying and speaking of God and Christ ... signifies nothing, except they do his will; that is, practice it, and be obedient to what he commands and requires.
Christ doth not give workers of iniquity a commission, or license to preach him, or his gospel.
Nor any write, print, nor speak (for God,) but as ye are moved of the Lord God (Fox)
Lewis Benson did not give this testimony nor preach this gospel, and neither do the NFF. Workers of iniquity are those who are not walking like Adam did and Christ did and indeed Fox did. This is why 50 years of preaching from Benson did not give the same results that Fox`s teaching did and the same as that of the NFF.
Fox would not allow a `professor` who did not live the life. Benson did not live the life otherwise he would have been more than happy to be persecuted by saying he was without sin as Fox before him did.He could not testify because he was not without sin and therefore not qualified to be a preacher of righteousness.
Brenda
Brenda
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Comment by Ellis Hein on 4thMo. 23, 2012 at 0:37
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If Lewis did not preach this Gospel and neither do we of the NFF today, why then have you joined the NFF website as though you were part of us?
What did Lewis have to say about sin? Did he fulfill the commission for his life Christ gave him? Can you judge the results of Lewis' life's work? I, for one, can testify to the power and the efficacy of that ministry and Lewis' faithfulness in pointing to Christ the way to righteousness.
"Workers of iniquity" are those whom Christ does not know. These are bid depart.
Again I am asking a lot of questions which it seems to me needs to be answered. It seems you are straining Fox's words through some preconceived construction of what he must have meant. I am not sure I can explain clearly, but what you are saying is not Truth. Something is not right.
Ellis
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 4thMo. 23, 2012 at 8:50
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Ellis
I spoke to Allistair I think it was, about joining with regards to my views on ES and asked if I would be welcome, and he said that I would so long as I did not mind others not sharing my views. I said that I am happy to fellowship with those who are seekers after righteouness, for after all, they were the ones who Fox fellowshipped with before they accepted his revelations from God on this matter.
I consider that NFF are the group most open to the same revelation due to the work of Benson taking them so far along the road. I am not discounting his work but what I am saying is that he cannot be counted a minister of the gospel which is the power of God towards them that are in Christ and walking in holiness. Fox called them workers of iniquity to claim to be minsters when not qualified. Seekers is the exact term for those who are not walking without sin but who desire it.
It is good to point people to Christ but unless one has reached the destination themselves, and are without sin as was Fox, then they are not to consider themselves ministers or authorities on preaching the gospel or the doctrine of ES.
Tell me Ellis, what do you understand by Fox claiming to be without sin?
Brenda
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 4thMo. 25, 2012 at 10:16
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I would just like to add that the early Quakers, unlike today, would not turn anyone away because they differed in doctrine, if the person wished to join them - there was no set list of beliefs which one had to adhere to apart from the basics of Christianity. And if the person who wished to join them said that they had been given revelation from God, I am sure that their response would not be to shun them, but to examine carefully what the person claimed to see if it was in accordance to what the elders in *that* day were teaching (not in times of apostacy). I am saying that Fox taught sinless perfection and nobody has yet brought forward anything to show that I am wrong. I am finding it even hard to get questions answered fairly.
What did Fox believe about being sinless? What does sinless mean? Is the response here to grasp onto favourite verses from the Bible to disprove what I am saying? If so then it is a reversion to the Protestant methods that Fox stood so firmly against.
in Christ the Light
Brenda
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Comment by Ellis Hein on 4thMo. 25, 2012 at 16:45
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I see I am behind here. I have not been able to get to the computer much for the last few days, so apologize for being slow in making response. Also, I find my answer is more complete for being this slow. So I hope it makes up in quality what it has lacked in promptness.
There is no reason to doubt Fox's claim to be made free of sin by Christ. This is Jesus' instruction to the Jews who believed what he spoke in the temple. "If you abide in my teaching you are truly my disciples, and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free…He who commits sin is the slave of sin. The son remains in the house forever. The slave does not remain forever. If the son set you free, you are free indeed."
Man's sin or problem is that we have the wrong head, we have the wrong teacher, and we eat the wrong food. Jesus is the truth because he restores us to the true condition of our creation. He is the rightful head, he is the true teacher, he is the bread of life. It is the master-disciple relationship with Christ that changes us from slave to the liar and murderer, and sets us free, makes us a son that remains in the house of God.
It is because he is the teacher of righteousness, the prophet like Moses raised up by God, the priest who can wash us in life, the one who oversees us that we do not fall down in the earthly, the king whose order and command we dare not disregard; indeed because he is Immanuel, God with us, that he fulfills the old covenant and brings us into the new.
In this new covenant, we have a new head, Christ Jesus, who is in us and among those who gather to know and experience him in a functional way. By his functioning as head are we kept in the image of God and are clothed in the breath of life. In this new covenant we have a new teacher who teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, who teaches us to live righteous and godly lives in this present evil age. In this new covenant we have living bread given us to eat. We are led into the pastures of life to graze and are let to drink at the springs of life. Our head is our source of life.
Thus, and in no other way, are we brought out of death and darkness and into the glorious liberty of the sons of God. Only thus are we set free from the covenant of death and sin made with the murderer and usurper.
Ellis
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 5thMo. 7, 2012 at 20:51
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Hello Ellis
Sorry to take so long but I just had no thoughts on how to respond to you. I don`t feel you have addressed my questions, or really engaged with the things I have said. I am not sure whether this is just because you have lost interest or whether you think I am not being clear enough. Perhaps you are just more polite than others but basically are just the same in that you are not prepared to engage with someone who questions the claims of the NFF and Lewis Benson and who has studied the subject well rather than speaking out of ignorance. I find this very unquakerish. I am being open and honest, and polite I feel but am not meeting the same. I feel you are dodging questions Ellis but maybe I am wrong and you are just too busy to bother answering properly. If so I will close by saying thankyou for your time.
Brenda
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Comment by Ellis Hein on 5thMo. 8, 2012 at 14:26
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Well, I am not sure what I have missed, but you obviously think it is something. So if you care to give it another shot, point out where I have missed your point, I am willing to try again.
Ellis
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Comment by Brenda Jackson on 5thMo. 9, 2012 at 13:16
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Ellis
You have described that one must come to Christ and Him alone, denying the lies of Satan, and our own ideas, listening and waiting for Christ to speak to us and show us how we are to please Him by obeying His will and not our own. When we are walking in His will, entirely devoted to Him, we are in the new covenant, not the old one where we depended on our flesh or our own wisdom.
However, in recognising this as the truth and deciding that it is what we desire, there is a work of God necessary of which we are incapable of bringing forth ourselves. This work of grace is what Fox describes as coming up through the flaming sword, and it is this work of grace, which sanctifies and renders the man restored to the state of Adam before the fall, that is, being in full fellowship with God because one has submitted entirely to His rule. We are in agreement I believe thus far.
I have asked you to be precise about this coming up through the flaming sword because many say that this is the start of following Christ or to make that clearer, they say that Fox became a Christian at that point in their understanding of the term ie one who sees that God is real and Christ died on the cross to make them right with God rather than the idea in `religion` that man is acceptable to God purely by obeying the commandments or even of listening to `Christ` within and doing what He says. This is not the gospel which says that man trying to do what is right and accepting the truths of scripture without the Holy Spirit within, cannot be saved . Are we together still?
Fox made it clear that once one comes up through the sword, which is an event and not a process then one *is pure at that point*, that is not `trying` to become holy through obedience - one is already in Gods will entirely but one must learn how to live this new life, not by learning to obey but by learning how to be guided by the Spirit alone with no interference from man`s God given instinct which is not sinful. This is called walking in the Spirit in scripture and does not contradict hearing Christ speak. It means for example, ignoring the body`s need for food if we must fast.
© 2013 Created by Allistair Lomax.
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